SD70ACU from Kato

[peteski]

Actually that ESU Loksound EM13 (or any EM13 footprint) is installed in the mid-train "motor car" of a passenger train so you will need to find a speaker to install with it.  Sound would be coming form that mid-car unfortunately.  So for my 16-car Shinkansen, the motor car is #10.  It would be odd to hear the sound get louder as car #10 approaches and fades as it leaves, instead of the lead car which isn't correct either.  Then again, for the prototype I think all cars are "motor cars".  Speaker in every car?   

I don't think any Kato discrete locomotive takes an EM13.  I think they all take the common two or three types of light board form factor that we are used to in the US.

Well, electric trains don't make much of a put-put or chuff-chuff motor sounds. IMO, except for the effect like horns, compressor or bell, a sound decoder in electric loco is basically wasted.  And yes, I also have factory installed EM13 decoder in the mid-train power car in my Kato/Lemke ICE3 set, and it is kind of funny when the horn sound emanates from the middle of the consist.

The GS-4 steam loco is set up to take EM13 decoder in the tender.

If you want to crystal ball Kato’s future in the N scale North American market, just look at their HO line…. Effectively slipped into complete irrelevance, as they just didn’t keep up with the competition.

Well, we'll just have to wait and see if you are correct. Personally I doubt that will be the case.  I also don't think that Kato is out of the H0 market due to the competition. I suspect that they simply don't really want to be in H0 space. Also don't forget that their bread and butter seem to be N scale  passenger train sets.

Kato is now far behind their competition in N scale at this point, even mechanically I'd argue. Yes, their stuff is top quality, and I have a ton of Kato love from my HO days too. But when you don't keep up to your competition you won't be able to live on reputation alone indefinitely.

You really think that Kato is behind the competition in their mechanical designs? How so? Have you ever thoroughly examine their mechanisms?  They are top notch. None of the currently made N scale locos from other manufacturers come close to the Kato's quality of materials used and close-tolerances engineering. It seems that most modelers seem to miss that point.

I'm curious which manufacturer's models you think are better designed and made than Kato.  If anything I think that Kato sometimes over-engineers some of their models, making them unnecessarily too complex or delicate.

[kiwi_bnsf]

Count me as someone who definitely thinks that Kato has been obsoleted — in particular by Scale Trains, and to a lesser extent BLI and Atlas.


Kato was definitely the gold standard for me fifteen years ago, but they have stagnated when it comes to shell details, lack of prototypical variations, and lack of modern DCC features including support for sound, and advanced lighting.


When it comes to "mechanical design", I agree that Kato produce the smoothest and most reliable mechanisms for most of their models (with the exception of the NW2, and the early releases of the GS-4). They are also usually easier to maintain and have good parts availability. However, if you are interested in DCC sound or advanced lighting, then they are lagging well behind.

Manufacturers like Scale Trains and BLI give you functioning independent ditch lights and lighted number boards. They are starting to standardise on E24 connectors. They have frames with space for a speaker without any milling. With Kato, I have to spend an hour or more milling out a frame to add a speaker, and I have to add a decoder, wire up my own independent ditch lights, and load my own sound file.

Also, with the motor control afforded by a modern ESU decoder, I can now get to within 95-98% of Kato performance with approximately ten minutes of BEMF and momentum tuning with a modern Scale Trains, BLI, or Atlas diesel release. You can achieve a slow speed creep and "flywheel" stops with the right tuning and momentum — all in software.


Conversely, if I want to bring a Kato shell up to the standard of prototypical accuracy and fine detail of a Scale Trains Rivet Counter loco, I would be looking at hours of super-detailing and repainting — and even then it wouldn't overcome the lack of a scale width hood on the SD40/SD40-2/SD45.

Kato really doesn't pay that much attention with their tooling matching a given prototype. It's more of a one-or-two-tooling-sizes-fits-all close enough approach. Comparing the various Kato versions to the Scale Trains Dash 9s, AC4400CWs, and SD40-2s, Kato suffer a lot of compromises with ditch light locations (or complete lack thereof), rooftop details, sand filler locations, battery boxes, nose details, step configurations, truck types, fan grilles and louvre locations, horn locations etc.

The Katos locos are much more spartan when it comes to details (and I don't just mean the lack of separate grabs). At best, there are moulded on hints of things like pilot details, pipework, bells, air tanks, air dryers, and traction motor cabling, but these are often in shallow relief or simply missing. Kato do no pay as much attention to filling the negative spaces between the shell and the trucks (often I think this is to keep free space for copper pickup strips and 9" radius curves). In the rare cases that Kato does provide separate details, these are usually plastic (like the antenna stands on the ATSF SD40-2 Mids) which are crude in comparison to those from other manufacturers. You don't get any etched details from Kato.

Kato also do not pay as much attention to decoration – they have a long history of poor colour matching to the prototype (their UP yellow is a poor Pantone match that is way too orange). Their handrails are often rendered in plastic that doesn't match the body colour. They often omit fine warning striping, stickers, and window surrounds. Their windscreen wipers are moulded in clear plastic and unpainted. They do not offer weathered or patched locos. They also do very limited releases in general — usually one or two schemes at a time in a couple of road numbers.

For me, this all adds up. I have more than twenty years experience maintaining and upgrading Kato locos, and yet I have sold all my Kato Dash 9s, AC4400CWs in the past three years. I'm now offloading all my Kato SD40-2s except some super-detailed favourites.

The Scale Trains releases simply blow the Katos out of the water. For me, they are also better value (even at USD250.00 each) because that includes an ESU Loksound decoder, complex lighting, and a speaker. With a big loco fleet, I'm saving a lot of time not having to upgrade Kato locos.


In summary, if your preferences are less about prototype accuracy, fine details, DCC with sound and advanced lighting, then perhaps Kato still makes sense. If any of these things matter, then Kato is lagging well behind IMHO.

Cheers

[GaryHinshaw]

Preface: It is what it is.

Comment: I agree with every point that peteski makes here.  To me Kato still has the best "bones": drive mechanism, basic shell tooling, and overall engineering.  They definitely lack in stand-alone and/or road-specific details, and I'll leave sound/DCC out of the equation.  I personally prefer my Katos over my Scale Trains for their bones; I can take care of the rest of it myself.  I can also appreciate that others have a different preference, and I would never try to argue that they were right or wrong.  Happily, Kato offer the prototypes I need for my pike.  I'd love for them to offer more, but that's not their business model.  Whether or not they wither in the future is above my pay grade.  Is there evidence that their overall N/A sales numbers are dropping?

Postface: It is what it is.

[sundowner]

If you want to crystal ball Kato’s future in the N scale North American market, just look at their HO line….

Kato has and is a niche player in HO.

[Olivani]

Kato still doesn't need glue to keep their highly precision injection molded parts fit flush together and stay together !

[kiwi_bnsf]

Preface: It is what it is.

Comment: I agree with every point that peteski makes here.  To me Kato still has the best "bones": drive mechanism, basic shell tooling, and overall engineering.  They definitely lack in stand-alone and/or road-specific details, and I'll leave sound/DCC out of the equation.  I personally prefer my Katos over my Scale Trains for their bones; I can take care of the rest of it myself.  I can also appreciate that others have a different preference, and I would never try to argue that they were right or wrong.  Happily, Kato offer the prototypes I need for my pike.  I'd love for them to offer more, but that's not their business model.  Whether or not they wither in the future is above my pay grade.  Is there evidence that their overall N/A sales numbers are dropping?

Postface: It is what it is.

I definitely think that this a case of horses for courses. I don't even think that this necessarily has to be a binary thing where Kato loses sales in order for Scale Trains to win sales.

Full disclosure, I do have some historical beef with Kato for their lack of USA releases back in the 2010s, where I consider them to have sat on tooling that could clearly sustain more runs (for example SD70Ms and SD40s). I also never understood why they didn't tool SD75I/Ms when they had most of the tooling already — but I digress. I totally get that this is my issue and not a Kato issue — I understand that their US business model is a small sideshow to the Japanese market. Maybe I should get some therapy!

I'm just grateful that we now seem to be in an era where finally multiple manufacturers feel that they can commit to tooling variations of the same locos in N scale with different features at (slightly) different price points. This has resulted in a veritable buffet of Dash 9s, SD40-2s, SD45s, Tunnel Motors, GP30s  etc. Long may this continue.

[tehachapifan]

I tend to think Kato felt, with good reason, that they were top dog for many, many years and didn't need to change the way they were doing things or produce anything that they couldn't run in multiple paint schemes. It was pretty much them and Atlas for a long, long time. Now, with the competition being much, MUCH stiffer (to the point that they may not be top dog anymore), we're seeing single-run paint schemes or thereabouts with the upcoming Surfliner release and these SD70ACU's. I would say that the possibility of a Kato produced SD75M and/or I is WAY higher now than ever, especially since they may be tweaking tooling from the SD90/43MAC's for the ACU's. The only change, IIRC, for an SD75M from an SD70M with flat radiator grills is the addition of a bulge on the Engineer's side of the long hood between the cab and hood doors.

While I agree that Kato may still have the smoothest running mechanisms, other manufacturers are closing in fast!

[mu26aeh]

Add the fact that you can walk into almost any hobby shop and see/handle a Kato locomotive.  And shop around different stores/online for better pricing.  Can't say that about ScaleTrains.  Unless ST is blowing out thru their own website.  Personally, I don't need all the stand off detail/grabs etc.  I don't want to be afraid to handle my equipment (  ) without breaking it.  And don't need sound in every locomotive so I'll gladly buy the bare bones model and add a decoder of my choice.

[GaryHinshaw]

Honestly we're d*mn lucky to have the choices we have these days. 

I should probably give ST another look now too since my samples are all from the first two runs of T4s and Dash-9s.  The mechanisms were so-so and the factory sound was  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.  (But sound doesn't work well in my ops scheme anyway, so I shouldn't comment on that.)

One thing that irks me most about any loco is flimsy handrails (but that's probably just some OCD on my part).  My ST locos do not score especially well on that item; my Kato handrails are thicker, but they're straight!  Purely personal preference though.

[turbowhiz]

I sincerely hope I’m wrong, and that they continue to produce lots more North American specific models forever. But they were top of the heap in HO in the 80’s and 90’s, and it’s like déjà vu…

(That said, this SD70ACU announcement IS a good sign!)

Kato was NOT a niche player in HO some ~30-45 years ago. They produced similarly groundbreaking products for Atlas in HO typically before the N scale variants arrived, in literally a 1:1 manner. At least the HO GP-7 wasn’t the abomination the N scale one was. Just like in N scale, they went on to produce models under their own banner in the 90’s… Again, same prototypes in both scales. The F3 was produced first in HO scale too, under the Stewart banner. They were popular and well regarded, and although I don’t know this for a fact, I’m thinking they sold WAY more HO than N (in North America) at that time. A quick ebay search for “Kato GP35” produces significantly more HO results then N. But competition picked up beginning in the mid 90’s and into the 2000’s. “Plastic Brass” had started so to speak, and here we are today.

I recently bought a Kato (Atlas) RS-1 that based on its wheel appearance has NEVER seen track (undecorated. so likely a never realized project)… After only a slight hesitation it ran about as perfectly as you could ever want. This model is 35+ years old sitting in a box. A testament to Kato quality. And Kato also have proper parts support, something which many others seriously lack.

I share Tim's thoughts. I’ll add my Rapido -8’s are probably the quietest and smoothest of any N scale diesel model I’ve encountered, although they’re far from Kato in the overall quality department, they do run better, and I have more then one that are like that. Will they run if left in a box for 35+ years? I seriously doubt it. Heck, they don’t even necessarily run out of the box in the first place! The Scaletrains factory ESU motor settings are terrible out of the box, but when tweaked properly and run in for a few hours they’re very comparable to Kato. They do seem to be going the extra mile in details like motor balancing, and I prefer hard wired trucks and truck mounted worms, although if pure serviceability is your thing, sure, split frames and contact strips are better in that regard. I typically purchase DC models and install non-sound decoders as a general rule, and its way easier to get the ESU lok-pilots into a ST model then a Kato model. I run them in on DC and sort any mechanical issues first.

I’d be very curious as to how many SD-40-2’s from all of the manufacturers were sold in 2024, since it seems almost everyone produced one… One has to think that the sales distribution wasn't perfectly even.

Given all the downvoting going on here, the Kato love is strong!

[peteski]

Kato was NOT a niche player in HO some ~30-45 years ago. They produced similarly groundbreaking products for Atlas in HO typically before the N scale variants arrived, in literally a 1:1 manner. At least the HO GP-7 wasn’t the abomination the N scale one was. Just like in N scale, they went on to produce models under their own banner in the 90’s…

Yes, those GP-7s were terrible, but they were not Kato, but Atlas. I have feeling that it was Atlas (not Kato) who decided to go ahead and use those existing RS-11 mechanisms and make a wrong-proportions Geep shell for it.

Also you seem to concentrate on Kato locos. How about all those passenger trains Kato makes? Most are accurately depicting certain prototype trains.  Not many other manufacturers do that.

Also good of you to acknowledge that Kato does make quality mechanisms.  They are not perfect (some had issues like cracked axle tubes or universal couplings), but overall they are pretty darn good.

And yes Kato has been making models for over 50 years. First H0, then N scale.  Their 50th Anniversary hardcover book does a good job documenting Kato's history.

[kiwi_bnsf]

I should probably give ST another look now too since my samples are all from the first two runs of T4s and Dash-9s.  The mechanisms were so-so and the factory sound was  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.  (But sound doesn't work well in my ops scheme anyway, so I shouldn't comment on that.)

[Thread drift alert]

To be honest I wouldn't say there is much change in performance since the first run Dash 9s apart from some newer motors. I make some changes to the reference voltage and BEMF settings, and things definitely run pretty sweet after that.

The sound definitely hasn't got any better — in fact it's got worse due to the trend towards making holes in the fuel tanks (which is 100% a bad idea).

One thing that irks me most about any loco is flimsy handrails (but that's probably just some OCD on my part).  My ST locos do not score especially well on that item; my Kato handrails are thicker, but they're straight!  Purely personal preference though.

The Scale Trains locos do suffer a bit from the fine handrails, but they can usually be coaxed into position. They definitely need more care when handling (but then so do my super-detailed Katos). They've all survived some busy days on a modular layout.

All my Kato SD40-2 Mids have warped handrails towards the rear porch but then I probably have a roster skewed more towards these units and suffer accordingly.

I might change my tune a bit after a few years of heavier ops on the home layout once it's running — time will tell.

[wmcbride]

[Thread drift alert]

To be honest I wouldn't say there is much change in performance since the first run Dash 9s apart from some newer motors. I make some changes to the reference voltage and BEMF settings, and things definitely run pretty sweet after that.

The sound definitely hasn't got any better — in fact it's got worse due to the trend towards making holes in the fuel tanks (which is 100% a bad idea).

Exactly! I have banged at ST a few times about their LACK of sealed speaker enclosures and the resulting tinny sound.

Atlas figured it out on their SD35 and my Rapido Dash 8-40CM with factory sounds were just perfect. I remember trying to build a speaker enclosure to fit in the fuel tank of an early ST engine (can't remember which one) but there it wasn't an open rectangular space. Ugh!

[wmcbride]

I always marvel at BLMA Craig (who started BLMA) and his work at adding detail parts to his Kato SD70ACe's. It's quite a feat but I note that he recently posted some new ST diesels.

I always liked my Kato SD70Ace's but they need details, to me, or they increasingly appear bland even at a 3-foot view.

[robert3985]

Because Kato already had SD90MAC tooling. Very little work needed to make these, and considering the variety in CP (well CPKC) units, they’ll sell a ton for little investment in new tooling.

Ahem!...Frankly, I don't believe it.  Kato's locomotive logic mostly escapes me.  If it were simply that "very little work needed to make these..." then why has Kato not jumped on making FEF-2's (only difference is the pilot between an FEF-2 and their very nice FEF-3 and a single stack (or triple) that was left on or tried on some FEF-2's), or a non-Worthington SA Feedwater System for a proper Two-Tone Grey FEF (either FEF-3 or FEF-2)??  How about an early pre-EPA oil bunker top and filler hatch for their FEF tenders, making a very easy and proper post-1946 to 1959 FEF-3 without the oil dams and safety appliances that the modernized 844 has??

And, how about a de-skirted GS-4??  Not too difficult to do that.

I don't know about modern stuff, but for their GS-4 and FEF-3, they'd very easily have different steam engines for different usage and different time periods and for more buyers.

After looking at and running some of Scale Trains recent releases, I'd say Kato is slipping further and further into irrelevance, which is a shame because obviously, it's just because of laziness or poor management, not lack of capability.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore