What is happening to our hobby?

[Rossford Yard]

I ran an inflation calculator, based on my time in N, starting in 1990 when I thought the early Kato/Atlas diesels ran well enough to switch from HO.  I still have a price sticker on a few of $85.  Right now, that would equate to $200.17 for a DC unit.  Had they included the then $25-30 DCC board, a DCC would cost about $259, about the price of a DCC sound loco now (at MSRP, and frankly, I don't recall if my $85 was full retail.  I suspect it was at a discount.)

At any rate, we have had this discussion before and we get better locos for the same inflation adjusted cost.  From memory, there were a lot of $10 freight cars, which translates to a CPI adjusted $23.55.  Here, it seems the cost of rolling stock exceeds inflation, at least to me.  Like others, I am glad I built the bulk of my fleet at $10-$25 per car. 

The new Atlas covered hoppers are a good example.  Yes, more detail, but I never cared for underbody detail in N (other than visible pipes) because if I saw the bottom of a freight car, it is derailed and I have bigger problems, LOL.  At $48MSRP, I wouldn't buy them.  I saw a few places discounting them to $32, or about 33%, and my old "must upgrade" and/or "collector-itis" kicked in, and as usual I over ordered, justifying it with a layout expansion that was planned to have a much larger concrete facility than my current one track, 4 car, Walthers Medusa Cement.  However, that added up to $400 to get all of them I wanted.  Looking at my credit card balance, it was.....like most MRR purchases.....unwise in the bigger scheme of things and I must cut back in the future. 

I only have 2 Atlas locos on Pre-order (in my IHB scheme, so they are a "must."

It is funny how the cost affects layout design.  While I love autoracks, when I saw the purchase price of new ones on the market, I quickly decided that maybe an auto frame industry might make more sense, using MTL gons with frames. (or finding some 3D printed ones.)

So, yes, rising costs affect all of us.  Who among us has the willpower to buy less?  Not many, I assume.

Lastly, I do have tons of locos that I could put up for sale, having gotten mostly past the "I need one of each model and paint scheme, even though they never leave the display shelves.  A few times, I have shared a table at local train shows.  DC locos only sell if they are under $50, probably closer to $40.  DCC diesels might sell for $80 or less.  I know some people really think they can get premiums for used N scale, but I have always doubted it.  My view is those are sunk costs (from a long time ago) and anything I get above $0 for them is found money.  Even when people are selling bigger things, like homes, I hate the phrase "What I oughtta get for this" because your original purchase price really has nothing to do with the current market.

Sermon over......

[sirenwerks]

Can definitely agree with that.  Pre COVID postage from US to Australia wasn’t too bad, but now that postage has gone through the roof...

I definitely relate on this. The care packages my wife sent to her relatives in Morocco use to be painless to ship but now it's prohibitive - 3x to 4x the cost of the contents, which gets picked through by Casablanca airport handlers.


IMO, the solution is 3D printing, but first we all have to learn to design in 3D and get printers.

[bbunge]

Including material, decals and MT trucks, I've been making hopper cars for $6-7 each using a $200 3D FDM printer.  I think I'm currently at about 40 cars (not to mention the 20+ I made for a club project). 

For about the same amount per car, I built a train representing a WWII US Army Medium Tank company (about 20 tanks, plus other vehicles and about 15 flat cars using the same printer.  That included decals and paint.  I haven't done the math as to how much that train would cost with the new MT sets (which would not reproduce the train anyway).

My loss?  My time.  I can print five hoppers in about 8 hours.  That's the easy part.  A lot more into cleaning, painting, adding details (ladders and brake wheels), decals, flat coat, weights and loads.  Perhaps a week of evenings.  I've recently designed and started making my own hopper car design that shaves a lot of time off since it includes ladders and a hole for the brake wheel.

I think my $200 printer investment has paid off and I've got two nice trains.

Bob

[Scottl]

Including material, decals and MT trucks, I've been making hopper cars for $6-7 each using a $200 3D FDM printer.  I think I'm currently at about 40 cars (not to mention the 20+ I made for a club project). 

For about the same amount per car, I built a train representing a WWII US Army Medium Tank company (about 20 tanks, plus other vehicles and about 15 flat cars using the same printer.  That included decals and paint.  I haven't done the math as to how much that train would cost with the new MT sets (which would not reproduce the train anyway).

My loss?  My time.  I can print five hoppers in about 8 hours.  That's the easy part.  A lot more into cleaning, painting, adding details (ladders and brake wheels), decals, flat coat, weights and loads.  Perhaps a week of evenings.  I've recently designed and started making my own hopper car design that shaves a lot of time off since it includes ladders and a hole for the brake wheel.

I think my $200 printer investment has paid off and I've got two nice trains.

Bob

This is something that has not been mentioned much.  Modelers have seemingly shifted to RTR models instead of building kits and kit bashing.  This naturally increases the cost of retail products.  By contrast, many here like Bob are prepared to put in some effort to make what they need and the costs for this remain modest (and 3D printing, as an example, has created a massive opportunity to do this). 

When I moved here a few years ago, I found one of the local hobby shops was selling n scale freight cars for $10 (IM, MT, Atlas) from an estate collection.  I bought 30 and spent most of two years repainting, decaling and weathering for basically the cost of my time.  Those cars are $40 new  at the same store, and mine look better with the weathering and fit my layout better.

So yes, costs of products are seemingly much higher, but at the same time, we still have many outlets available for a more modest investment in the hobby.  But if you want to go to the store and buy RTR, be prepared to pay the price.

[JoeD]

Can't speak for on line and show dealers setting prices, but current mainline prices reflect the cost to manufacture, cost of materials, cost of labor and cost of shipping +...  With more detail being demanded the cost goes straight up.  If you've been in the hobby long enough, pull out an old 60's vintage diesel by just about any company and compare it to something that's being produced today.  Level of detail, manufacturing practices, operating options, PC boards and not just grain of wheat bulbs soldered to a truck pick up and on and on. 

Working for a company that manufactures trains has its perks...being able to focus on what I really want to build is difficult though.  LOL  "hey that pretty!!  I may need 6 of those...someday.  LOl

Joe

[Rossford Yard]

BBunge makes a good point in that time does correlate to money.  So yes, more detail, and yes, more RTR.  I don't know how much things like walkways, brake wheels, and such add to have some Chinese girl apply them, as opposed to the days when we added the last details, but it has to be something.

On a similar thread around here, I recall some LHS guy telling us that the Woodland Scenics "Built and Ready" structures really sold well, another example of us trading dollars for time more and more.  I know I do.  I rarely build structures anymore because I can find nicely built ones (and some so not nicely built of course) on eBay for about the same as the cost of a new, unbuilt Walthers kit in the box.  Apparently it is not just excess rolling stock some folks are selling off.

Apparently, while everything else is changing, i.e., having two jobs, etc., wages rising somewhat less than inflation, who has time anymore to build a layout?  It's the biggest hurdle modelers face......after having the courage to get started in the first place.  (RTR and things like WS risers and foam also help with the fear factor) 

The one thing that hasn't changed is that our main goal is to build a layout and in many ways, spending more to save time makes a load of sense.  I think that is proven because the mfgs are no dummies - they make what sells and quit on stuff that doesn't.  I know shops that still have old Intermountain freight cars that required assembly.  Each mfg took notice and all went to fully RTR. And, with more details being free standing and applied in the factory, that has to be a small part of the additional cost.......but I doubt many are willing to pay a bit less for a kit where added details must be applied, but it may come to that.

[Bill H]

Can't speak for on line and show dealers setting prices, but current mainline prices reflect the cost to manufacture, cost of materials, cost of labor and cost of shipping +...  With more detail being demanded the cost goes straight up.  If you've been in the hobby long enough, pull out an old 60's vintage diesel by just about any company and compare it to something that's being produced today.  Level of detail, manufacturing practices, operating options, PC boards and not just grain of wheat bulbs soldered to a truck pick up and on and on. 

Working for a company that manufactures trains has its perks...being able to focus on what I really want to build is difficult though.  LOL  "hey that pretty!!  I may need 6 of those...someday.  LOl

Joe

Have to agree with Joe. I work internationally, and advise some firms that either procure overseas or have some manufacturing or labor done tasks overseas. Americans like to complain that 2023 ain't 1963 - well if you are waiting for those price - salary ratios to return, you are going to have a very long wait. Covid escalated a lot of significant cost increases, containers shipping costs from anywhere went up, labor costs even in the cheapest markets - and that is not China - went up at least 100% - cheap markets being Viet Nam, Bangladesh etc. China's contract labor costs going forward are significantly higher than was expected just a few years ago. Frankly, I am surprised that some of our major manufacturers have held the costs at current levels.  When new oveseas contracts are negotiated, I expect significant per unit cost escalations. Within the US, the new UAW contract raises are just a tip of the iceberg of what will come in manufacturing cost escalations - as inflation will drive all labor costs higher. I have to give MTL credit for holding prices at a reasonable level.

[jagged ben]

Back in the day if I wanted freight cars roughly equal to today's quality I would have to spend more on a Gold Medal Models detail set plus MT trucks and couplers than on the car itself, and then put in the hours of modeling work.  Glad I built up those skills, I still use them.  But it's also nice as a family man ti be able to buy good stuff off the shelf.

Also, there's just been inflation of course.

[bbunge]

To add to this.  While I was able to make my own cars for $6-7 each, I had an educational (and expected) experience when I volunteered to lead a club car project that would produce about 40 cars.  We ended up making a kit car for the project that we would sell to club members mostly at cost.

We needed a box to put the kit in.  We bulk purchased trucks, but needed bags to put the trucks, BB weights and some ground up coal to go on top of a printed load.  Have you priced rattle can paint recently?  There was at least two cans of paint since we wanted the car to have a base color.  A club member did the artwork and worked with a vendor to make the decals.  Club work sessions filled a bunch of labor, sorting, counting, gluing on labels, bagging, etc..  When it was done and said, the kits came about to be about $12 each. 

I had respect for MT and other manufacturers, but this project just deepened that respect and it gets even deeper when I read comments about this detail or that detail, or the type of box, or the type of foam.  While my run is small, I didn't really have tooling costs either.  Oh, I did have many hours of CAD work since it was my own design, but that was a sunk cost since I had done that for myself in an interest in providing some variety in my hopper car train. 

Bob

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Working for a company that manufactures trains has its perks...being able to focus on what I really want to build is difficult though.  LOL  "hey that pretty!!  I may need 6 of those...someday.  LOl

Joe

It's funny, that's the reason I picked "December of 1985 on the NCR" when I was working at MBK 20 years ago.

I can't imagine the temptations when you can get chips fresh off the line.

[DirtyD79]

Modelling consumers have also demanded more detail, tooling, etc. that has driven up costs to manufacture.  Also, the 'cheap' manufacturing in China that has dominated for several decades is no longer as inexpensive.  This has driven up costs beyond inflation rates.

Like the song by glam metal band Cinderella goes "Don't know what you got Till it's gone". Speaking from the HO side people didn't want cheaper stuff like the Athearn blue box and Roundhouse kits no more. Nope, they wanted brass level details out of styrene, and they wanted it ready to run at that. They also wanted sound, DCC, and smoke and were willing to pay up. They stopped buying the cheaper stuff so Athearn, Roundhouse, and Walthers stopped making it. I don't blame the manufacturers. They just went where the money is.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Like the song by glam metal band Cinderella goes "Don't know what you got Till it's gone". Speaking from the HO side people didn't want cheaper stuff like the Athearn blue box and Roundhouse kits no more. Nope, they wanted brass level details out of styrene, and they wanted it ready to run at that. They also wanted sound, DCC, and smoke and were willing to pay up. They stopped buying the cheaper stuff so Athearn, Roundhouse, and Walthers stopped making it. I don't blame the manufacturers. They just went where the money is.

I think there's quite a bit of credence to this. But I think there's also another factor to think about too. In addition to the "it's easier to sell one expensive item than two cheaper ones" aspect, a lot of the low end of the market is eaten up by past over production and second hand transactions.

Thinking back 20 years ago when I worked at MBK, we were always getting in pricier new HO scale freight cars, but we also had an aisle of old Blue Box kits that had been purchased years prior.

How many times have you seen the same thing? Even today it happens. Why would manufacturers want to invest in making more stuff when there's plenty of "new old stock" still on store shelves, and even more available second hand through shows, flea markets, etc...?

It's like housing. And why all new developments "luxury"?  It's not greed, it's because it's a lot harder to make ROI building a $200k house than a $500k one.

[Bruce Archer]

I started this so I'll add another 2 cents.

Married, retired and disabled with 18-year-old triplets, 2 in college and one in a cooking school my budget is very limited. What I can spend is what I can make from the collections I bought when I worked in the Hobby Shop. I was at one point buying any D&H car that was produced, but those days are gone. I cannot afford to buy newly released cars. $31.00 for a NE Caboose?  No, I will redo the Life-Likes I got for $5.00 each.  The one thing I do have is time to redo cars ( I will post a 2-Bay ACF Center Flow I redid in D&H). And thanks to Jeff Martin I have a way to make stand-in D&H end cupola cabooses. And I have been able to use my modeling skills to make GP-39-2s from the shells and locos I had.

But what am I trying to say? Are the model companies pricing themselves out of sales? The Atlas old cupola caboose which has been around forever is up to $22.95. I understand about costs for molds, production cost and the need to make a profit,  But wasn't he reason production went to CHina to reduce costs?
All I know I cannot buy the cars I wish to add to my D&H collection due to cost ( after years of paying less than $10 for atlas cars, I cannot bring myself to spend $31.00 for a NACC plug door box.

Bruce

[Scottl]

Like the song by glam metal band Cinderella goes "Don't know what you got Till it's gone". Speaking from the HO side people didn't want cheaper stuff like the Athearn blue box and Roundhouse kits no more. Nope, they wanted brass level details out of styrene, and they wanted it ready to run at that. They also wanted sound, DCC, and smoke and were willing to pay up. They stopped buying the cheaper stuff so Athearn, Roundhouse, and Walthers stopped making it. I don't blame the manufacturers. They just went where the money is.

Time to lock the thread when Cinderella has entered the discussion 

[mu26aeh]

While you might not be able to buy the latest and greatest from all the manufacturers, there are still plenty of deals to be had.  And these days at your fingertips or a short drive to the nearest show.  The market is flooded with MicroTrains right now.  Cars can be had for $10-15 each.  Of course there's others out there fetching more but go to any show and that's what you'll see.  Facebook Marketplace, some vendors and individuals make a good side hustle hosting weekly/monthly live auctions on FB, and of course evil inlet site.  I'm helping someone sell her husbands collection and stuff is moving fairly briskly.