My BLI T1(PRR) paragon3 randomly stops.

[Zack L-J]

So I’ll admit my track situation is crap. The tracks aren’t dirty, they just have some noticeable voltage drop and the gaps between various bits of unitrak aren’t symmetrical due to funky fresh track geometry and mixing regular snap track with unitrack. However when running in DCC(digitrax dcs50) my T1 will consistently randomly(there’s an oxymoron for you) just come to a stop. Not like the power has been cut, but as if it got a phantom “throttle 0” command. The brake noise happens and it smothlu comes to a stop. I jiggle the throttle and it starts back up. I even put it on a meticulously clean circle of unitrak and it still does it, and the voltage between the feeder and the other side are within 0.05 volts. So what should I do? It’s driving me crazy and there’s no way I could take this to a show or anything. Do I need a keep alive? A feeder every other track piece? New decoder? I don’t know where to start. If new decoder then which one?

[peteski]

Well, poor/dirty track is not a friend of any DCC loco (and especially BLI models in general).  You basically already stated what most of the problem is. So yes, clean the track.  That is given.

The other problem is that this model is notorious for very poor tender pickup (and that is where most if its already-poor pickup capability it).  The loco itself does pick up power from the drivers on both sides, but with the center 2 blind drivers pretty much floating above the rail, and rear driver with a  traction tire, only the very front driver is solidly picking up power. As for the tender, each truck only picks up power on one side only.  That is half of the wheels!  Very, very poor design. That, combined with how touchy Paragon decoders are to even slightest electrical dropout, it is a formula for poor running.

Modelers have sent their models to BLI for repairs (including one of my friends) and BLI did improve the pickup.


Here is the problem:  The metal wipers inside of the trucks which are supposed to be in good contact with the wheelset's axles are often not bent up enough properly to make good contacts, Some aren't  making any contact!



Here is what the inside of the tender truck looks like.  I took out the rearmost wheelset to clearly show the metal pickup wiper. If you mechanically inclined enough, you can fix it yourself, much quicker than sending it to BLW.

First, remove 2 small screws which are retaining the bottom cover (not the center screw).  Then pry one of the latches at the end of the truck to release the bottom cover.  The cover  will lift off. Now you will see what the photo shows.

IMPORTANT: before removing the wheelsets, make absolutely sure to note which wheel is insulated from  axle. Only do one truck at a time.
Now remove the wheelsets, that will  allow you to bend the wipers up, so they will make more positive contact with the axles. Notice that the wipers are configured in adjacent pairs.  You should try to be careful with how much you bent each one, so each pair is balanced.  It took me some time to get everything just right.

If you have them bent just the right amount, when you reinstall the wheelsets, they will not fully lay down in their slots. They will float a little.  But do not bent them too high. That will create too much friction, and will also make it very difficult to snap the bottom cover back on.

This is also good time to clean the the axles and the  ends of the wipers where they contact the axles.  Use alcohol or Naphtha.  This would also be a good time (since the wheelsets are loose) to thoroughly clean the wheel treads using alcohol.

Place the wheelsets back in the truck. Triple check that the insulated wheels are all on the correct side of the truck.  Quadruple check!   

Then snap the bottom cover back onto the truck. This will be a bit tricky (so the axles do not come out of their grooves/bearings). I start by installing the cover to latch on one end, then lower it, and snap the other latch.  It will take some pressure to snap that latch.  Be mindful that the top of the tender has some delicate antennas and such.  I work on mine in a soft foam cradle.  Then reinstall the small screws at the diagonal corners of the cover.

Do the next truck.  Did I mention, make sure to keep track which side of the wheelset has insulated wheels? 

This should make the model more reliable, but with dirty and poorly powered track, you might still have some issues.

[greenwizard88]

What DCC system are you running? I've encountered an issue like this where JMRI would send a stop command after not hearing from the wireless throttle I was using from a previous session, while my DCC command station would send out a DCC speed packet, and somehow the same engine was being addressed by two different DCC slots. Restarting JMRI and resetting my Digitrax command station fixed the issue.

I will also echo peteski's post, BLI engines that lose power will sometimes reset enough to lose their speed info, but not enough to reset the sound system. The result is the engine just gently comes to a stop. Or maybe they need a DCC speed packet, and if there's poor pickup they miss that specific packet and stop. Either way, don't forget to clean the wheels as well.

[rodsup9000]

  Might do a reset on the decoder.   
Sounds like decoder is timing out from no throttle input.
  I don't know enough about BLI's decoders as to what CV it is.

[Zack L-J]

Pete: I did try a perfectly clean and well powered circle of track, and it still did it. Good point about the tender (I can’t believe they’d sell a $350+ locomotive with single sided high friction tender pickup. Kinda crazy). I’ll fiddle with the wipers and give them a drop of conductalube to help smooth things out. I’m pretty dissatisfied with this decoder regardless of pickup. Are paragon4s more reliable? If not, what aftermarket decoder should I go with?

Greenwizard: it’s a Digitrax Zephyr DCS-50. I don’t think it actually sends a throttle stop command, and I’m not using any external throttles or JMRI. I think it’s like you and Pete said, the decoder’s speed controller is resetting.

Rodsup: I did reset it, forgot to mention.

Thanks y’all.

[peteski]

Not a fan of any Paragon decoders.  I like ESU Loksound and ZIMO (ZIMO unfortunately do not have many American prototype sounds available). Some people like Soundtraxx Tsunami.

I also re-read your original post and would like to know more about "jiggling your throttle" to make the loco move again. for some reason I didn't really notice that mention.
So you don't touch the model - just the throttle to get it going again?
What does "jiggle" mean exactly?   You shake the throttle?  Move the speed control knob? Flip the reversing switch?

What if when the loco stops, you don't touch anything?  Will the loco just remain stationary, or will it start moving on its own  after some time?

If you don't actually have to nudge the model to get it going again, the problem might be in your DCC system, or some sort of compatibility issue

If you think that track and electric pickup is ok, you could try few more tests.

1. Set your locomotive upside down (in a cradle if you have one), then clip some test leads to appropriate tender wheels to supply power to the model.  Of course this should be done after you make sure that the axle wipers are solidly connecting to the axles.  Hook up the other end of the test clips to the track (or track output of your DCC system), then run the loco upside down (stationary).  Does it still stop from time to time?  Well, this is not the best test since those tender wheel wipers might not be 100% reliable, and you only using one for each connection.

2. Address another locomotive (either with or without sound) using the same address as the T1, then place them both on the same track and run them.  If T1 stops while the other one runs, then your DCC system is probably working ok.  If you have another BLI locomotive, it would be a good 2nd  loco to try.

The decoder could be misbehaving.  That would mean you should return it to BLI for repair.  It would be best if you could also try it on another DCC system (if you have a friend or a club with DCC equipment).  If it misbehaves on multiple systems then the decoder is your problem.

[jdcolombo]

FWIW -

I have replaced every single Paragon decoder in my BLI locos with ESU LokSound.  4 PA-1's, six light Mikes.  In all cases, the engines not only sound light-years better, but perform an order of magnitude better.

The BLI engines I have all are capable of terrific performance.  They are held back by the stock decoder, IMHO.

John C.

[mike_lawyer]

I am having this EXACT problem with one of my BLI M1b's.  All of a sudden, today it will just randomly stop and restart the sound from startup of the engine.  I am running straight DC, but plan on making it DCC in the near future.

I could send it back to BLI (I did that with an M1a a couple of months ago).  The only problem is that it takes about 8 weeks to get your loco back.

The track is clean and all other locos work fine.  I suspect it is a decoder issue.  I tried a factory reset, but it did nothing.   

[Zack L-J]

Re:jiggling the throttle: what I mean is just wiggling the speed lever a little bit, basically just moving it one or two speed steps. I’ll check the addressing test when I get a chance. The longest I let the locomotive sit before I changed the throttle was about 60 seconds or so. It just sat there with the sound on but not moving. Like I said in the original post, when this issue happens the train slowly comes to a stop. It also did the same thing when running as address 03 after the factory reset. I’ll also try the upside down test when I can.

John, I’ll probably just go with a loksound anyways. Does anyone know if they make a duplex sound set?

[Jbub]

Does anyone know if they make a duplex sound set?

They do not, your best bet is to use a sound file that already has "articulated steam sound" (yes, I know the T1 was not articulated) and change the whistle to the appropriate Pennsy whistle.

[peteski]

Zack, what if you run that loco while constantly changing the speed a little with the knob?  Just couple of steps each time. Basically keep on sending speed step packets to the loco? Will is still come to a stop  after a while, or will it keep running?

Also, have you had this loco for a while, and it was working fine until this problem developed recently, or is this a new model you just acquired?

Running the 2 locos at the same address would also be an interesting test.

[Zack L-J]

I actually just tore down my layout last night but I’ll throw the circle back up for testing this weekend. I’ve had the engine for some months, but I’ve barely been able to run it. I think the issue has been since the beginning. Maybe I’ll set up two circles so I can run multiple engines on the same address. I only have the one T1 and don’t feel like speed matching it.

[mike_lawyer]

Does anyone know of a guide somewhere on the net showing how to take out a Paragon2 or Paragon3 decoder and wire a BLI steamer for straight DC operation?  I really don't need the sound, and I am running straight DC right now.  Later, I intend to install Zimo decoders.

[Jbub]

Does anyone know of a guide somewhere on the net showing how to take out a Paragon2 or Paragon3 decoder and wire a BLI steamer for straight DC operation?  I really don't need the sound, and I am running straight DC right now.  Later, I intend to install Zimo decoders.

I'd say @jdcolombo is the resident expert on pargonectomies. I haven't seen any guides but I'm sure he has some tips.

[learmoia]

Based on what is described - My vote is intermittent loss of DCC signals and packet timeout.

Set CV11 to 0 and see what happens..

Here is a good thread and write up on it..
https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/289626.aspx