You think I'd know better - Trix 2-10-0 rebuild

[peteski]

When you go back to that era, most motors really were awful.    The Trix motor in the F-unit had soft brushes and created fire rings.  So did the U-boats, not quite as bad, but you still had to regularly clean commutators and put in brushes.   You'd get a really good motor in the Trix units, and some were excellent, but as the dies wore the quality went way down. 

The Rivarossi can motors would overheat, shift the bearing in the plastic end cap, and you're done.  And the soft magnets attracted 'stuff', jamming them.

The Roco motors were a complete POS, never saw a good one, either the original ones or the ones in the Atlas GP9/F units.

Rapido motors were rugged, but impossible to maintain if the brushes got contaminated or fire rings.  I cut holes in the black plastic just to clean the commutators, but I never burned one out.

So the only motors of the era that really, really set the standard were the Kato PA1's.    Still some of the best, never lost one.

Today, it's really unusual to have a bad motor that either toasts or requires regular maintenance.   We take it for granted, and even the micro ones with finger brushes are relatively robust.   I can't remember the last time I either toasted a motor or had to tear one apart just to clean it, or even replace brushes.    The last motor to croak I had was probably 12 years ago, one of the Tomytec TM originals.

It is not just the motors - the high friction mechanisms were large part of the problem.  If you were to put one of those weak motors in  any of the Kato or Atlas easy rolling locos with axle-end pint bearings, those motors would last much longer. 

As for the original Minitirx motors, while I don't have much experience with long duration use, I've seen others here call them "bulletproof".  Minitrix, Atlas, and Rivarossi all used formed metal segments commutators with very large gaps between segments. That in itself likely caused accelerated brush wear. I think Roco motors used commutators with machined commutator and small gaps, but they were also very weak (like the Mehano, Model Power or Life-Like early motors).

[wm3798]

Oh well . . .
I know you were big on keeping the models in their original condition, so I tried to make the original motor a bit stronger.  No love lost - I was going to toss that model anyway.  Actually, this was a good (even if failed) experiment.

It wasn't a failure... We successfully discovered something that didn't work!

[peteski]

It wasn't a failure... We successfully discovered something that didn't work!

Yes, you have a point.  I was looking at it from the angle that the upgrade did not work as hoped for.  You damn optimists!   

[bbunge]

Ok, I found three of these in a parts box I ended up with.  What are they?

[randgust]

Rigged up pickup wires and the tender pickups, ran it around the layout.   SUCCESS!   That made all the difference in the world.  I now have slow speed.   The combination of the 8x8 tender and the 5-pole motor may make this all worthwhile yet.

[mike_lawyer]

It's pretty amazing what a quality five pole motor can do.  I installed one in my Key Imports I1, and it is really smooth with good low power speed.  Only problem is the motor is too big for the boiler to fit over, but I have a smaller five pole motor in the mail that will fit.

I

[mmagliaro]

I bought a batch of these back in the 70's to experiment with - as far as I know they were the original motors to the Con-Cor PA1, which was just a beast.   I bought 7 of them; four of them were used to repower my Model Power RSD15's (and they are still going) and three of them went to Atlas / Roco GP9 repowerings for a friend, and when he passed, I got them back.    This is one of those motors.    Unobtanium, but they sure like the very same dimensions as the LL motor, just not skewed poles.

I also have another one that ended up in my Trix F7 as an experiment, I think that was a Mashima instead of a Kato, but same deal, and it's equally a five-pole beast.

They are wide for most hood units, I had to dremel out the shells to make them fit, but it was worth it.   Astounds me how they can sit there and grind on full slip and never heat up.   Trix or Roco or Yugo motors would erupt in flames.

Randy,
That motor you have in there now looks like the ones Kato used in the later 4-6-4 Hudsons.  They are very sturdy motors, to be sure.

[peteski]

Randy,
That motor you have in there now looks like the ones Kato used in the later 4-6-4 Hudsons.  They are very sturdy motors, to be sure.

Yes, those were early Kato motors. And as we mentioned earlier, it looks very similar (but not identical) to the "powerhouse" Life-Like motor.

Referencing Kato's 50th anniversary book Randy's motor is model FM-5 (from late 1960s) where the modern Kato motors are variants of the original smaller GM-5 motor introduced in 1979. They also made a smaller motor for their steam locos. That was SM-5  I suspect that the "5" denotes number of poles.

It is also interesting that Kato's first N scale motor looked almost identical to those crappy weak Mehano/Life-Like/Model Power motors that burn up.

[randgust]

OK, well now that I know it's worth finishing, more work has been done.  I am pleased with the way it runs.  So here's the first time it's all together at least for another photo.  I'm following Max's 2005 RMC article on the (re)detailing.

GHQ cab, GHQ headlight, air compressor, reverser.  Brass running board replacement.  Keystone Details John is working on a new printed front end with the air tanks.  The pilot wheel replacement works just fine.



Link:  http://www.randgust.com/PRRL1013.JPG[/img]

I'll be test pulling trains with it now for a bit.

That tender drawbar was a challenge, but wow, was it worth it.

[Lemosteam]

You know, if you used Kato trucks for the tender, I have drop in Kiesel truck frames that accept the Kato pickups. Same for Bachmann trucks.

The Worthington is complete and available, and the pilot/cylinders are work in progress.

[mmagliaro]

Randy, that looks good!  You have captured the overall look and proportions of the I1 well.
The front of the tender looks like it's riding a little too low over the front truck, so it might need a washer there. 
I will enjoy watching the rest of cosmetics come together.  I think if you paint or blacken the rods and crankpins,
they will look 100% better.  It looks like you ground down the flanges on the drivers so it can run on code 55, correct?

[randgust]

Well, with a coupler on, testing is starting.

Using my home-brew dynamometer car, I'm getting 15g of drawbar pull off an 'original' chassis and 18g off of the new one, I think mostly because of the new lead weight in the front end of the boiler and a little more off the cast cab.

For comparison, im my measurements, that's equal to an Intermountain F-unit for pull, but way below the Kato L1 with the pewter boiler (my recordholder at 34g for a single locomotive)

But that's good, I have no issues with that, might find a little more room for weight but I'll probably only get 1g more of pull at best.  That 5 pole will never overheat, so it's a matter of finding room for cast metal.  I did change the plug wires to the softest Miniatronix stranded wire I have.  I can get another pair of wires in for the headlight, so putting a decoder in this one still looks possible.

I'm a long way from final detail, painting, etc.  Yes, the flanges are turned, and yes, the entire frame will be grimy and neolubed just like my L1. The tender body is just sitting there.  I haven't seen enough difference on the truck sideframes to swap them, I did that on my D16. 

 This is shakedown week for engineering changes, the Altoona test plant.   The dynamics of all these changes can result in some interesting tracking issues under load.  But no more detail, or decoders, or anything else until this design passes train pulling 101.

[Bill H]

OK, well now that I know it's worth finishing, more work has been done.  I am pleased with the way it runs.  So here's the first time it's all together at least for another photo.  I'm following Max's 2005 RMC article on the (re)detailing.

GHQ cab, GHQ headlight, air compressor, reverser.  Brass running board replacement.  Keystone Details John is working on a new printed front end with the air tanks.  The pilot wheel replacement works just fine.



Link:  http://www.randgust.com/PRRL1013.JPG[/img]

I'll be test pulling trains with it now for a bit.

That tender drawbar was a challenge, but wow, was it worth it.

Randy - what is the part number for that headlight? I have a lot of B&O steam that need to move the headlight up to the top from the middle of the boiler. Or do you have another suggestion?

[Lemosteam]

Randy - what is the part number for that headlight? I have a lot of B&O steam that need to move the headlight up to the top from the middle of the boiler. Or do you have another suggestion?

Apologies for responding on Randy's behalf.

@Bill H, this a RLW/GHQ headlight from the PRR L1s kit. Don't think it is available anymore.

I offer a design that is based off that headlight, only it is hollow and a pre-wired 0402 LED can be fed into pre-printed passages.  A mating PRR stle support bracket can be used to support it:



http://www.keystonedetails.com/products/n-scale-details/2016/9/3/n-scale-prr-head-and-backup-lights-8pk?rq=headlight

http://www.keystonedetails.com/products/n-scale-details/2016/9/3/4-pk-prr-steam-engine-headlight-braket-for-trix-boiler-shell?rq=headlight

[randgust]

I have no idea what the part numbers were and it doesn't matter, because I ended up with Marshall's entire collection of GHQ L1 parts thrown in one bag and sent up to me by Bruce Monroe.  Unobtanium, so John is the best idea so far.  I think I had 4 headlights.

And it has to be better than what I did, which is drill out the solid cast pewter headlight to achieve the exact same thing as that - put the 402 LED in there, and I made a brass bracket to support it in the Trix smokebox hole.  On the GHQ one, the bracket is cast on the smokbox front, so that won't work.

One of the big visual differences that needs to be solved is that an I1 is just 'solid', there's no daylight under the boiler and no daylight under the cab either.   You look at a side photo and it's packed solid.   I have noticed that one of the big differences is the frame extension under the cab, etc.  The sheer mass of this thing is very apparent in Max's model, not in mine, at least not yet.
https://www.trains.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/CTR-PRR-4644-Williamsport.jpg