Reconditioning after a Fire

[Albert in N]

Peter, I express my sorrow for your loss.  With your boxed Kato locomotives, be careful that the diesel number boards, brake hose details, snow plows, horns , plus the extra things in the box envelopes are not lost.  I retired after working some 43 years in property and casualty insurance claims.  If I suffered the same loss to my modest N layout and collection, I would ask for a copy of the restoration estimate.  Then I would request payment of the N collection clean up cost, expecting to negotiate some. Repairable, or cleanable items are not considered total loss, where you would ask to retain the salvage (for a percentage of value).  If you used mail order to build your collection, some sellers have an accessible compurized record of your purchase history to verify cost. Restoration firms usually submit a detail bid before the work is started.  How else can the claims adjuster determine cleanable items versus total loss items?  Sure, I would question the proposed skills and methods of train collection cleaning.  How hot is the temperature of the odor treatment (does it warp plastic and checker the decals)? 

[basementcalling]

Y'all's brains are the best to pick. Lots of collective wisdom here.

Many comments jive with my thoughts, and several extrapolate beyond what I was thinking.

I hear ya on the price vs volume of items cleaned, but at least the two technicians today - who were doing linens and electronics (TVs stereos, appliances) were honestly puzzled as to how they will handle the basement and the layout in particular.  I shared what one friend, John Drye of NVNTRAK - told me  worked for him for layout compensation, which was to find several quotes from custom layout builders and agree to a price per square foot of completed scenes, partially finished, and areas that are plywood plains. It was an area he said was open to much negotiating before arriving at a mutual agreement.

We did talk cars and engines based on location in the house too. While I smell smoke everywhere on entering, it logically seems more powerful in the upstairs rooms, especially my master bedroom. The back corner where my nightstand and bed were took the brunt of the heat and flame damage - yes some got through despite what the FD said as I have a rather spectacular photo on my phone I don't remember taking and I distinctly saw a gout of flame back draft through a hole punched in the drywall and a piece of Souffet that pretty much crisped and melted under intense heat. I did have a number of items in jewel cases and boxes around and under the night stand because who doesn't like to open some boxes upstairs and keep them near the bed to occasionally gaze upon longingly while you mull where the hell to store them.

Even in the hottest location in the house, buried in moist insulation and damp drywall remnants, some of the MT cars and my Belt Line Atlas GP38 showed no heat damage, and the one jewel case I opened today seems to have kept the soot and fibers OUT. I know it did not do so with smoke, but detecting smoke odor off anything in that room is impossible as the entire room reeks and makes me start sneezing if I am in it more than about 10 minutes without some type of mask on my face. Those medical masks have been doing double duty.

I expect if pulled to a location with a clean atmosphere, some smell would cling to the jewel case, the label inside and the car itself. I also had several MT sets in their boxes, plus assorted kits in the closet - luckily still shrink wrapped. Several boxes of combined orders from various online vendors minus the packing peanuts or bubble wrap had tops folded/overlapped to be closed, but were not totally sealed, and contents look clean to the eye. I'll probably do most of the cleaning of rolling stock in those type boxes after the reclamation crew helps find and box the cases as we make more progress into the pile of ceiling debris.

Large rolling stock white, foam lined boxes were in the basement and two in the living room where the smoke was less intense. There are not soot streaks on walls on this floor visible, though that isn't a certainty they aren't hiding behind the entertainment center or other furniture that hasn't been moved yet. I used to weather cars as I watched TV in the living room because I could. No wife to complain ya know, and especially in football season, it's relatively easy to do work while a game is on in the background. If the crowd cheers and Joe Buck says something truly stupid, you look up for the replay. 

The laundry room has a pegboard 12 feet long filled with items hanging, boxes on shelves above it, and below the workbench that is 50 inches off the concrete floor. This room has water marks showing seepage and bleeding on one wall, and definitely had standing water during firefighting efforts, though how deep is hard to assess as there is no electricity to run lights right now. A number of open projects were out on the bench, or sitting in project trays or cubbies on the shelf above, as well as naked cars without cases. My airbrushes and paints are in here.

The downstairs bath with shower stall held lots of long pieces of foam and stringers ripped at Lowes for benchwork and scenerey supports. Foam is probably ok, but exposed wood likely absorbed some smoke, but being the lowest floor it's impossible for me to say how thick it was as the fire raged next door. The second work table under the benchwork where I did most of my modeling on the papermill has way too much clutter with kit sprues and stacks of them grouped by type of parts and projects underway. Lots of my 3d printed materials were in containers here, as well as strip and sheet styrene and cars waiting for weathering - mostly in jewel boxes.

The layout in the main area of the room was still largely unfinished scenes, but a number of places have track glued to cork or foam roadbed, sheet cork for passing sidings, etc... I was specifically asked about how easy it would be to lift the track off and clean and reuse it, and I honestly said I am not sure, but will experiment to find out. Some scenes had track tacky glued down but not locked in place and some on foam was pinned temporarily to test alignments on the printed track diagrams. Most of that I can probably pull up.

Kitbashes are going to be hard for anyone to clean without damaging etched parts or 3D printed details. Rolling stock on tracks to stage a few pictures or do some small switching were out, and suffered more cat damage than fire issues. It's water damage to the 2x4 on the bottom of the serpentine joist wall that is the issue here, as it is contaminated, and that segment of the layout has to be at the least, disassembled so the laminate floor can be removed as it is wet toast, but not heat damage.  Lovely that there are over 2 1/2 big boxes of drywall screws in that 60 plus linear feet of mostly mushroom/double deck benchwork that might have to be removed without power drills, as all those need reconditioning. Guess my wrist muscles might get a work out if I want to try to reuse wood that did not get wet down here by coating with Kills after taking it apart, but more likely it just gets chopped up after a dollar amount is assigned to that area. THank goodness though there is no glue holding benchwork together.  It was time to chainsaw this layout and salvage track and buildings anyway, but it hurts to do it under these circumstances.

I'm looking at 9 to 12 months in a rental, so hobby time will have to focus on different segments of model railroading than layout building over there. But damn if the insurance company didn't find a rental unit with a pretty well designed basement for train layouts if I owned it. Hmmmmm. Actually my next layout foray will be more minimalist along lines Lance Mindheim outlines in his books I suspect. Better a finished smaller layout, or layouts, than a large monster that is never "completed."

Finished modules in the closet under the stairs are fate TDB, and the large number of pizza and wine boxes full of cars and engines here are likely not going out for reconditioning. Luckily the tracks in the staging yard were empty and under boxes, not unboxed rolling stock waiting a chance to roll. 

I'm absorbing that I have far too much crap and need to downsize, especially magazines. The fire may have forced my hand on that issue.
How to preserve rolling stock, engines and kits while decluttering will be interesting adventures for sure as if the reconditioning team doesn't pack it and store it - which they are doing in addition to cleaning some things - I have no room for it given the amount of other items to be transported and put in the rental and eventually brought back home when it is ready for me to return.

[BuddyBorders]

I'm really sorry that this happened to you and your neighbor. It's one of my greatest fears and a leading factor in my decision to rewire my house some years back.

I have nothing of any great significance to add, except that I hope others can learn from your experience and make some proactive changes to better protect their collections. I know I certainly will be looking at my storage solutions. I have already had to make some changes due to a minor sewer backup in my basement that I am almost finished rehabbing. It's rather ironic that that happened to me as my job on our Borough Council is the sewers. What I learned is to get a maintenance cleaning of your sewers every few years, especially if you live in an older home.

I hope your journey goes as painless as possible.

-Buddy

[basementcalling]

In case you are a pyro.

2:08 AM No memory of taking this photo out my bedroom window.

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I got out PDF and immediately turned into photoforanhour man once I saw all the neighbors were safely outside. This was the view when I came out of my unit.

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Around back was where things were the most intense. My unit is on the right of the flames.

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A few more minutes and I would have far more damage. These are soot streaks from smoke coming up from the floor in my front bedroom.

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Attic gatoring and scorching on the rafters and plywood. Fire department says this was all heat damage, not caused by direct flame.

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[nkalanaga]

Other than maybe some weathering I doubt that the smoke itself will harm your models.  Modelers used to smoke around their layouts, and the only damage I've read of (in old magazines) was having to clean the track a lot more often, as the tar gummed it up.  Of course, what it did to their lungs wasn't mentioned...

House fire smoke probably wouldn't be nearly as bad as years of cigarette smoke, so your stuff should be fine, except for the smell.  Most of that should be on the outside of the boxes, for stuff that was in a box.

As for the layout, I suspect you'll want to start over there, especially if most of it was still in  the benchwork stage.  Unballasted turnouts could probably be salvaged, and possibly plastic buildings, but the rest would likely be easier to replace than to clean.  Your Sherman Hill dirt should be fine, especially if you can spread it out outside.  Get a large flat box or tub, line it with plastic, and let the dirt air out naturally.

[mmagliaro]

I would demand references I could personally speak with who had smoke-damaged trains cleaned by this company.
And that would be AFTER you are sure you even need them.
It would not surprise me at all if, when they say they can clean "model trains",
the only thing they have ever cleaned are Lionel trains, and they don't
even know what N Scale is.

[JMaurer1]

Our business had mice chew through the PEX water pipes in the attic about a year ago. We paid a (nationally known specialty restoration) company to come and 'restore' what they could. They said they could fix or repair ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. In the end, their restoration efforts were remove the drywall and install several large blowers and dehumidifiers and to do the laundry. We could have bought the equipment they used for about $1000, but they charged us $7000 and really didn't do much for that (insurance said it would be covered until it wasn't). Just because they SAY they can 'restore' the trains, doesn't mean they know ANYTHING about actually doing it, just that they can charge more for trying and damage to the trains be darned. I wouldn't let them touch my trains and I would try to get the layout written off as a total loss since water, smoke, wood and a year of time won't do it any good. Sorry that you have to go through this...maybe you can buy the rental with the great basement?

[davefoxx]

Peter,

I'm really sorry to hear that you have been involved in such a disaster.  Thankfully, it sounds like no one was hurt.

I would probably consider the layout a loss and seek reimbursement through the insurance company, asking if I could salvage the plastic structures.  As for the trains, I wouldn't let the restoration company touch the ones that were important to me or that couldn't be replaced.  I'd take my chances on my own restoration, if that's even necessary for trains packed away in jewel boxes.

DFF

[Doc Frankenfield]

Take the time to clean them your self. for engines get them in rice (like a cell hone to assure there is no moisture.  cars in crystals will need to be carefully cleaned and checked for heat damage.
any paper will have smoke smell but not likely damage. It is doubtful that the cleaning company will treat those cars as you would and even more unlikely that the correct packaging will wind up with the correct rolling stock.
Simple green will clean up your bench work and adding some weight while everything drys will help correct or prevent warpage.

[fire5506]

Smoke /soot from a structure fire is a lot worse than is being made out to be. If you can smell it nasty stuff is still there. The smoke from cigarettes and cigars is mild compared to smoke from a structure fire. You have all kinds of man made products releasing bad chemicals when heated to the temperatures of a fire. It can be up to 1500 degrees at the ceiling in a fire breaking items down to other chemicals. Besides the health hazards, soot is corrosive.
 If you had a computer, I recommend that you back up the hard drive before your computer fails. Soot is bad on electronics.

 Richard Webster

 25 years as a firefighter.

[daniel_leavitt2000]

I had a flood years ago in an area that I stored my collection.

The worst affected was a box of IM/FVM/Atlas freight cars in the medium jewel cases. About 100 cars total. For these I removed the paper inserts and ran the boxes though a COLD cycle in the dish washer. The cars were disassembled and aired out outside for a few days. Several of the cars had stamped steel weights, which I removed and sanded the surface rust off, then primed them with auto primer before reassembling.

The box had several Kato and Atlas engines in it. I repeated the process for the jewel cases and replaced ALL the PC boards with new parts. Luckily, this was before I converted to DCC. The frames, wheels and wipers needed a good cleaning and polishing but nothing too crazy. The motors needed the brushes replaced but were fine after dunking them in electronics cleaner overnight.

For the layout, anything that got wet will need to be replaced with the exception of foam board. If the wood only has smoke damage, you can paint it in Killz and that will cover up any odor or residue. Keep in mind you will probably need to wear a mask if cutting these parts in the future, especially if you are allergic to smoke.

One thing I would do frequently when I had the flooding issues (before the pump system was installed) was to dust baking soda on the areas that were prone to mildew and let it sit for a few days.

[basementcalling]

Thanks so much for all the replies, guys.

Richard, you are obviously the guy with the experience to know about fire smoke, and both restoration companies said the same thing. One even said my fishing rods really needed to be treated in addition to the line being replaced on all reels (braided kevlar lines) because the smoke leaves behind toxic and carcinogenic compounds created when all our new fancy schmancy stain resistant, fire retardant treated materials inside the house start breaking down as they burn.  Even the cork on the handles will absorb *****.

I've decided they are not touching my best engines. Layout is likely totaled because I am not going to be motivated enough to remove the 1,487 drywall screws it took to put the benchwork together. No I did not count as I built, but I bought three 500 count boxes of them and had 13 left at the current end of construction. It would have to be unscrewed, removed, treated, and then Kilz applied to seal the wood, with no certainty that odors and other nasties wouldn't reemerge if new holes are drilled or boards trimmed. Cost benefit analysis on time alone is a negative.

Found out yesterday too that the interior of the house will be open to elements in reconstruction. There will not only be no climate control during a crazy Virginia winter with all it's temperature swings (70 on Monday at 7PM, 20s the last two nights, and 70s again by Saturday). Gas and electric are currently off since the fire and there is no timeline yet for restoration as the pipes and wiring need to be inspected. Talk about layout expansion and contraction. Areas with track glued down (There is no ballast anywhere yet @GaryHinshaw ) will likely kink or distort from that level of thermal instability.

I'll salvage what I can off the layout of buildings and track, count my blessings it was not worse, and move on. As for rolling stock, either choice is rolling the dice.

[Cajonpassfan]

Thanks so much for all the replies, guys.

....

I'll salvage what I can off the layout of buildings and track, count my blessings it was not worse, and move on. As for rolling stock, either choice is rolling the dice.

Peter, my heart goes out to you as well, and I believe that after the initial shock, you've come to reach the right conclusion, as you summarized neatly above...

A close friend here in town lost a large HO layout, and his business, to a devastating structure fire a couple of years ago. What the flames and smoke didn't get, water and foam did. At first, the natural reaction was to try to salvage what we could, down to saving metal trucks off melted plastic and resin cars, but it soon became apparent that saving the easy stuff, like a handful of structures and some electronics was all that was practical. Beyond that, moving on on and starting over was the way to go.

A small group of us are now in the process of helping him rebuild, bigger and better, so a new railroad is rising from the ashes like a Phoenix, pics below. Maybe when the dust and life settles down a bit, you can rebuild too.

My best to you Peter,
Otto K.

[NtheBasement]

Some great looking rock work on the bigger and better!

[porkypine52]

I got with my Homeowners Insurance Company years ago.  Wanted to add my collection of goodies to be covered on my Homeowners Insurance.  Couldn't get them to understand that NOT all electric trains/models are Lionel.  Finally mentioned "do you insure Stamp Collections?"  Then they understood.  Got a RIDER on my Homeowners for my trains.  Cost is not much, less than $10 a year.  Replace or Recondition was one question.  I now VIDEO RECORD any added items about twice a year, and keep the DVD in separate location and have copies in other places.  I can call the shots whether disposing items or reconditioning [if possible] after an event.  And VALUE?  There is a sticky slope.  Retail on most everything, but I have to prove that something is of a higher value, than worth just retail.  Document--Document--Document.