ESU Announces V5 73199 Kato "K1" style, and new Nano Sound Decoders

[peteski]

It would be really hard to believe that they won't at least eventually replace the 73100. Talk about a useful and versatile board. They must have sold a crapload of those. There's got to be a lot of locos out there that could still use a board like that, although I guess they're mostly already owned or on the secondary market.

While I agree that it would be nice to get a V5 replacement for the 73100, I suspect that it was ESU's unwanted stepchild.  Just a speculation.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Ed,

  It mostly means that ESU has finally exhausted their inventory of the Select 73100 and 73199 decoders.  These decoders were based on the older V4 Select technology and were limited by being "Select" types and therefor limited to sound files created by ESU.  These new versions will be the same as the current LokSound 5 technology and will be able to accept both ESU and user created sound files. 

  The 73199 is the OEM decoder that Atlas and IM have been using in their sound ready and sound installed locomotive models.  So there is now a LokSound 5 version which has been shipped to the MFG for OEM use and a batch has been shipped to ESU LLC in the US for the retail market.  It is a drop in replacement for the IM SD40-2 sound capable models and for the Atlas Silver and Gold ESU sound re-designed models.

  The 73100 which was an earlier design that happened to work well in many Atlas and Kato locomotive models has also run out, but there will be no direct replacement.  Instead there will be a new unit which is designed to fit most Kato hood models like the SD70's, GEVO's, SD40-2's, etc.  According to Kelley Duford (nightmare0331) they should also work in many Atlas hood models as well.  It probably won't be a "drop in" but hopefully it will be as with the 73100 was and only slight modifications will be required.

  Further on is the Nano which is basically a smaller version of the LokSound 5 Micro DCC decoder.  While designed to fit on a carrier board which is supposed to be the same size as the current LokSound 5 Direct board, Matt at ESU implied that they will make it available somehow for N-Scale use.  Hopefully this means availability without the carrier board, but with some sort of mating connector and wires for a wired installation.  This remains to be seen but since the decoder's apparent width is 9mm or under, it would be great for wired installations in N-Scale hood units or smaller locomotives such as switchers and even small tender installations for steam locomotive use.

I hope this helps.

Thanks! It does quite a bit.

[milw156]

Maybe Alvin (wutter) can create an adapter board for a nano decoder with a similar foot print??? It was nice having decoders that played nicely together without going back to school to learn how to make them function as a team......

[tehachapifan]

Maybe Alvin (wutter) can create an adapter board for a nano decoder with a similar foot print??? It was nice having decoders that played nicely together without going back to school to learn how to make them function as a team......

Good thinking! That said, this would rely on the Nano board being narrow enough to fit narrow-hood diesels (which, AFAIK, we still don't have solid intel on). Also, we would likely lose room for the speaker and enclosure as I'm assuming the Nano board would have to attach and hang below the adaptor board off the rear (where many of us put the speaker and enclosure much of the time on Atlas-type installs).

[conrad]

Well this is a big opportunity for Soundtraxx. One of their recent videos mentioned a lot more specialized N scale sound decoder boards and if they come out with an Atlas DCC board, there is nothing else available... then I'm going to go that route.

This is the last thing I wanted. None of these stupid boards work well together and now we can't even focus on a single manufacturer because they just want to screw with something that has been proven to work well.

There is little, if any, benefit of V5 over V4 other than being more tedious to program. They already had virtually everything imaginable available as a Select sound file. The stupid default functions don't even line up.

I am seriously considering just tossing sound out altogether. It's not worth the aggravation.

Right on Daniel.

While I'm not going to dump sound decoders, how about JMRI's Virtual Sound Decoder (VSD).  Great sound, free and sort of easy to use (learning curve)?

For your average user (me) I think V5 was overkill.  I do understand that manufacturers need to keep updating to maintain market share, it's unfortunate though.

Conrad

PS: Peteski, your photos hit it right on the head

[Wutter]

Good thinking! That said, this would rely on the Nano board being narrow enough to fit narrow-hood diesels (which, AFAIK, we still don't have solid intel on). Also, we would likely lose room for the speaker and enclosure as I'm assuming the Nano board would have to attach and hang below the adaptor board off the rear (where many of us put the speaker and enclosure much of the time on Atlas-type installs).

Potentially, but height is always going to be an issue for piggybacked boards and especially in narrow hood units. Also its unclear what the mating height of this non-Next18 connector they're going to use is yet, hopefully it is lower or has a tighter pitch spacing.

[jdcolombo]

If (and I realize this is still speculation) the Nano is, say, 9mm wide by 20mm long, and if (again, speculation, but reasonable speculation given Matt Hermann's comments) there is a wired plug (similar to the Next 18 wired plug) for the Nano that is considerably thinner than the Next 18 adapters on the 5 Micro, no one should miss the 73100 board.

I was never exactly sure why people went ga-ga over the 73100 anyway, except for the fact that it was narrow enough to fit in a hood diesel without worrying about thinning the shell.  The 73100 was hardly a drop-in install.  You nearly always needed to grind the frame at least a little.  You still had to hard-wire the speaker; you still had to wire LEDs in many installations because the ones on the board were not positioned correctly to work for a given shell; for reliability, you still had to wire the motor contacts.  Using the board limited the speaker enclosure height, which then required more-difficult-to-fabricate L-shaped enclosures to get adequate internal volume for the speaker.  Adding a few keep-alive caps for dropout control was difficult, and required scraping off board insulation or soldering to one end of tiny rectifier diodes.  What, exactly, was so great about it?  The 9mm width.  And that's really all.

If you get the 9mm width with a 20mm-length with the Nano, that board will fit nicely in the center section of nearly any hood diesel.  It won't cover the back shelf and interfere with speaker placement.  There's every reason to believe that it will have convenient pads (or maybe even wires as part of the wired plug) for keep-alive connection, since the 5 Micro provides such pads.   More space will be available for keep-alive caps.  You'll have more function outputs - headlight, rear light, both alternating front and rear ditch lights along with lighted marker lights will be possible if you want to go that route.

And the ESU 5's sound capabilities really are better than the V4/Select.

Embrace the future! 

John C.

[squirrelhunter]

Let's be honest, 95% of N scales aren't going to hassle with a sound install if they have to solder more than the speaker to the decoder- THAT was the appeal of the 73100.

I'm going to try my first install on an Atlas GP15-1 with a 73100 and its a pretty close fit. I may have to do some filing or add some Kapton tape, but if I had to solder motor leads and all the LED's and grind the frame heavily just to get it to fit I'd be out.

I think ESU listened too much to their customers doing custom installs enmasse vs. Individual hobbyists looking to covert a legacy fleet. Sound installers want decoders that can be used in a million different locos with some grinding and soldering. Legacy fleet converted need as close to a plug and play option as possible.

The killer app here is something like a 71300 with either a good 8x12 integrated speaker or a no solder option to attach a speaker.

[reinhardtjh]

And the ESU 5's sound capabilities really are better than the V4/Select.

Embrace the future! 

John C.

This in addition to the fact that critical electronic parts in the Select decoders were EOLed and not available which required a re-design anyway.  Watching the threads on the LokSound Groups IO mail list is very educational.  Guys there are doing things with the program flow and sound slots that I NEVER would have thought of.  It's just amazing what you can do with them if you stop and think about it.  If you don't like the way brakes work?  Re-program them.  If you want your diesel notching to work differently? Or more prototypical?  Re-program them.  If you run into trouble doing it. Ask the group. Chances are someone has done it or knows a possible fix.

[jdcolombo]

Let's be honest, 95% of N scales aren't going to hassle with a sound install if they have to solder more than the speaker to the decoder- THAT was the appeal of the 73100.

I don't think that is true.  Perhaps it is true on a certain subset of Atlas frames, but for many installations, there was a lot more work to installing a 73100 than just soldering on speaker wires.  Especially if you wanted to put it on a Kato mechanism.

I'm going to try my first install on an Atlas GP15-1 with a 73100 and its a pretty close fit. I may have to do some filing or add some Kapton tape, but if I had to solder motor leads and all the LED's and grind the frame heavily just to get it to fit I'd be out.

And yet, soldering motor leads is exactly what is often needed for electrical reliability.  Not to mention the fact that often the motor spring contacts don't line up correctly with the contacts on the board.  Again, it depends on the frame.   I hope it works out for you, but there is a significant chance you will find it necessary to hard-wire the motor contacts to get reliable operation.

Legacy fleet converted need as close to a plug and play option as possible.
The killer app here is something like a 71300 with either a good 8x12 integrated speaker or a no solder option to attach a speaker.

Unless a manufacturer is willing to incur the expense of custom boards for every different frame variation, a sound install is never going to be plug & play.  Or even "almost" plug and play. Take a look at how many Digitrax boards are made for different N-scale engines.  I counted 24 on their web site.  I can't imagine any sound manufacturer is going to do that.  The engineering/manufacturing costs vs. potential market simply isn't favorable.

At the end of the day, converting a legacy fleet is always going to be complicated.  Manufacturers aren't going to pursue the legacy market when there's more (and easier) money to be made by working OEM deals with manufacturers.  If you happen to have specific frames for which the 73100 was designed, then you're in luck.  Otherwise, a 73100 board installation is no less complex than a wired Micro installation.  Except for that little problem of 10.6mm width for the wired micro.  THAT's a problem, no question - but one which the Nano apparently will solve.

John C.

[tehachapifan]

I agree with everything you've said, John, but I will still miss the 73100 if it's indeed not replaced. Without it, as squirrelhunter pointed out and with many Atlas pre-sound-type installs, we're back to finding a place for the decoder to sit (where the speaker isn't), how to secure it (probably with unsightly and bound-to-eventually-come-loose tape), where and how to pull power off the frame and where to tuck wires and resistors for LED's. Can I make it work (assuming the Nano is indeed small enough)? Absolutely, but I sure enjoyed having the 73100 as a go-to option for a nice, clean and often simple install. All this said and with the points you've made, I guess I can understand the reasoning for discontinuing the board.

[jdcolombo]

The power pickup point is one I missed, and yes, it is an issue, but usually you can just cut the stock circuit board and use a 1/4"-wide strip of that as solder points for a hard-wire.  Even on the old pre-DCC engines with just the small light boards, this works well.  I've also used some 1/32"-thick double-sided PC board for this purpose, but that sometimes doesn't work depending on the clearance between the "fingers" and the frame.  But I'll admit that having the power pickup points on the board itself is a plus.

I'm sure that for a certain subset of installations, the 73100 was a godsend, and that it will be sorely missed for that subset.  But if I had to choose between a replacement 73100 board or the apparent size/capability of the upcoming Nano, the Nano wins easily for me.  If you were going to use a 73100 in your installation, you should be able to move to the Nano pretty easily.  In some cases it will take a bit more work, but in a lot of cases, it will take less or at least no more.

John C.

[tehachapifan]

The power pickup point is one I missed, and yes, it is an issue, but usually you can just cut the stock circuit board and use a 1/4"-wide strip of that as solder points for a hard-wire.  Even on the old pre-DCC engines with just the small light boards, this works well....

Yes, this does work well and, as a stand-alone, it isn't all that hard to do. It's when you add up these little individual tasks that you start to realize how convenient the 73100 board is/was for many installs.

[Kentuckian]

All I know is the 73100 got me over the hump for diesel narrow hood sound installs. My small GP-9 fleet will sound great! I think a relatively simple installation like this is good to build confidence.

That being said, I also am looking forward to the Nano.

[daniel_leavitt2000]

Let's be honest, 95% of N scales aren't going to hassle with a sound install if they have to solder more than the speaker to the decoder- THAT was the appeal of the 73100.

I'm going to try my first install on an Atlas GP15-1 with a 73100 and its a pretty close fit. I may have to do some filing or add some Kapton tape, but if I had to solder motor leads and all the LED's and grind the frame heavily just to get it to fit I'd be out.

I think ESU listened too much to their customers doing custom installs enmasse vs. Individual hobbyists looking to covert a legacy fleet. Sound installers want decoders that can be used in a million different locos with some grinding and soldering. Legacy fleet converted need as close to a plug and play option as possible.

The killer app here is something like a 71300 with either a good 8x12 integrated speaker or a no solder option to attach a speaker.

This all f***ing day.

I hate soldering. I ruin boards trying to solder. The 71300 was easy to solder because the pads were not very close to anything sensitive to heat. I just borked two NCE decoders trying to add class lights. I'm not going to risk that in a $100 board. I'm just not going to use it.

The frame modifications needed to use a 71300 were so sight I literally used the can opener tool on my Swiss amy knife to do it in about 10 seconds. (All it requires is to remove the top flange along the DCC board channel on the frame halves.)

There is no effing way I'm about to tool around milling frames I can't replace just to have the ability to add a programing-hostile $100 sound decoder that I'm going to ruin with my shaky soldering skills.

If they don't replace the 71300, I'm officially done adding ESU to my current fleet.

What would change my mind?

If Atlas made retrofit kits that included the new frames, wheel contacts and speaker. Maybe even include the new 71399 v5 board. Let us reuse the old motor, trucks, gearing and shells.

Another idea is that ESU provides specific solutions to models... Like the Atlas S2. Maybe we could order a new 71300 style board in quantity for sale. Someone like Streamlined Backshop would design and offer the board for their own sale.