The N Scale Bachmann F9 Thread

[peteski]

What bugs me about Minitrix and Bachmann F units is the shape of the windshields (well, and  shape of the nose in general).  But the windshields are a non-starter for me, especially since much better rendition of those tricky shapes have been done by Kato and IM.

Also, as Albert's photos show, the Bachman unit is too slim. Those locos had a more portly width that again IM and Kato represent well.

[Albert in N]

   Here are photos comparing Bachmann Spectrum SP "black widow" F-7 A-B units with Kato Rock Island F-2 A-A units.  Both have cab side vent windows; Bachmann calls them "tear drop windows" plus decent detail (if you don't look too closely at the horns).  The thing that bugs me is that the gap between units is way too much on the Bachmann units.  For what it is worth, I paid $45 new for the Bachmann pair (still have clear plastic box) in 2008.  I paid $120 for the Kato set when they came out some 6 years later (both at discounted prices).  Now, a new Kato F-7 single A unit costs around $60 and a single Bachmann Spectrum equivalent F-7 A unit (with basic DCC dual mode decoder) costs around $50 using today's Trainworld on line prices.  Here is a Spookshow link for the Bachmann F-7: http://www.spookshow.net/loco/bachf7.html

[Mark5]

  Agree that Bachmann F-9s were great for the early 1970s in N scale.  I notice that the train set Bachmann F-9 is slightly longer and slightly narrower than Kato F units.

Reminds me of the old Lifelike "F7", which was really too long to be an F7 - it was more of an F-Something (but man could it pull!)

[thomasjmdavis]

That difference in length is not much less (if any) than an Intermountain or Kato F and the Intermountain FP.

Maybe 50 years ago, Bachmann could not decide between an F9 and FP9, and split the difference....

[kiwi_al]

Thought I'd give you guys an update. I cast a resin copy of the Bachmann F9 and well ummm it only just fit the old Bachmann mechanism which means it won't fit width wise on a Kato or IM. So to plan B get a Kato F7 and make it an F9. It'll be the correct width and length and details will be better. I'll use the 48 inch fan from the Bachmann and see how everything else lines up.

[peteski]

Thought I'd give you guys an update. I cast a resin copy of the Bachmann F9 and well ummm it only just fit the old Bachmann mechanism which means it won't fit width wise on a Kato or IM. So to plan B get a Kato F7 and make it an F9. It'll be the correct width and length and details will be better. I'll use the 48 inch fan from the Bachmann and see how everything else lines up.

IMO, that is a wise move.  Transplanting just a Bachmann fan onto a more accurate shell/mechanism makes sense to me.

[kiwi_al]

This was supposed to be a quickie before the main event ATSF No 5011.
I'm now trawling for Kato F7's to modify. At least now I can do an F9 with sound!!!

[ncbqguy]

Looking at the detail photo of the current Bachmann unit I retract my previous advice.
First, the shell pictured is the train set version. The spectrum is better in the cab window and door area IIRC.
I don’t currently have any Bachmann units to examine but I do have drawings which I will post when I am at my pc and not on my iPad.  I don’t see a way of canceling a post here so will start a new one in a half hour or so.
Charlie Vlk

[thomasjmdavis]

@ncbqguy
Charlie, if you look at the upper right of the bar across the top of your post there is a "modify" button at the far right.  This only shows on your own posts.  You can't eliminate the post altogether, but you can edit and/or strike out errors.

[kiwi_al]

I've been looking at the Intermountain FP9. All the windows and side details are correct. The carbody could be shortened, GMM FARR grills used to hide any mismatch along the side grills. The front pilot needs a minor modification. The 48 inch Fan could be inserted and the FP9 patch on the roof could be removed and a Bachmann one inserted with the fan, you'd remove the steam generator equipment and you'd have a good F9A shell that would fit on a IM F7 mechanism or Kato F7 mechanism.
Modifying the Kato is trickier, you'd replace the front quarter window with one from a Spectrum F7, move the front porthole closer to the last F7 vent grill, graft a new vent before the porthole (this is quite easy to do), replace the single fan unit on top with the Bachmann one, modify the front pilot, remove the rear overhang of the roof, delete the lower front headlamp. I'm heading more the Intermountain route at the moment but that could well change.

[ncbqguy]

In my consulting work with Broadway Limited on their HO F3 and F7 I did extensive research into the evolution of EMD F Units and the bewildering range of exterior factory options.   Add to that the individual railroad modifications and you have a real problem for the model manufacturer.  The headlight nose /nose signal light door, dynamic / no dynamic, steam generator / no steam generator and pilot open ("freight") or closed ("passenger") cause a range of choice combinations on every unit from FT thru F9.  Add to that the external changes in headlight, number board, windshield, cab side window, doors, gutter, dynamics, cooling fans, side grilles, vents, water and sand hatches, and roof overhang as EMD made external changes to the models and you are unlikely to find two units that are exactly alike from order to order (and sometimes within orders).

Because of the information I gathered in this study I made a PowerPoint presentation called "F Unit Spotting Features" which I have presented at a N Scale Enthusiast Convention and a couple of other venues.   

This formed the basis for the N Scale Broadway Limited F Unit program.   I provided the factory with all the components they would need to do the entire range of EMD F Units from F2 through F9.  I specified the need to have a way of representing the removal of all or parts of the fuel tank skirts as many railroads did that fairly early and this would allow a wider range of paint jobs to be correctly offered.   I also provided information on railroad specific modifications (such as the special large nose door headlight on ATSF and the "Wagon Wheel" antenna on CB&Q units).  The initial production had many such details but the factory did get the F3 Phase II units vents reversed from the information supplied.  I do not know if they made provisions for tooling any units beyond the F3 and F7 models already released.

I looked at the options and there really isn't a straightforward way to get to an accurate F9A short of doing a Dr. Frankenstein and assembling body parts from a range of donors.  Unfortunately only the trainset Bachmann "F7" (the late Lee Riley of Bachmann always insisted it was a modified F7 and not an F9) has the grilles, vents and porthole locations of an F9.   The upcoming Rapido of Canada FP9 would probably be the best starting point (chopping the length down) except it will have Canadian-only features. The Bachmann Spectrum is actually a F7 which is roughly the same "F7 Phase Ia" as the Kato.
The Kato E8 is probably the best place to get the correct Wing and Side Windows and the trainset Bachmann is a place to get the sides. (The old Arnold-Rapido FP9 might be another possibility although I don't know if the grilles and side panel battens would be the correct heights).

Here is the F9 slide from my PowerPoint presentation to serve as a guide.
Charlie Vlk

[Mark5]

I've been looking at the Intermountain FP9. All the windows and side details are correct. The carbody could be shortened, GMM FARR grills used to hide any mismatch along the side grills. The front pilot needs a minor modification. The 48 inch Fan could be inserted <snip>

Why not just use the version with the 48" fan? https://www.intermountain-railway.com/n/images/69990amw.jpg

Mark

[thomasjmdavis]

"The Bachmann Spectrum is actually a F7 which is roughly the same "F7 Phase Ia" as the Kato."
Charlie,
With all due respect, the Bachmann Spectrum (at least, the early 2000s original DC Spectrum version, I do not have the current production) has several differences.  Chief among them are the 48" dynamic brake fan, and a lack of overhang on the back of the unit.  I also note that the vents on the side of the Kato unit are square and those on the Bachmann are taller than they are wide.  I haven't done enough study to know if these vents are version differences, or just a better rendering by Kato.

Here are a couple quick phone pics- Bachmann on top, Kato below in each photo. 







Just to be clear, I have one AB set of Bachmann, and a "stable" of Katos.  Overall, the Kato is a better unit, no doubt.  But to my eye, the Bachmann is a late F7, with several distinct details that distinguish the later versions.

[ncbqguy]

I don’t have any Bachmann units and thanks for the photos of the ATSF unit.  The lack of roof overhang and 48” fan doesn’t make it an F9.   Everything else is the same as a Kato.
To clarify, the yellow highlighting on my drawing is an artifact of the presentation to illustrate the differences from the previous “Phase” or model showing what changes were made.
Most all the features with the exception of the windows were bolt-on parts and were interchangeable....pilots, fans, etc.  even roof overhangs could be cut off to facilitate wreckers lifting the ends).   While never stated by experts, I believe the ATSF was a major driver of “Phase” changes made as the road had a very varied operating range of conditions that served as a test lab and also was a close customer of EMD.  Look at the early F3s, some of which evolved with most of the intermediate stops to almost F9 appearance while carrying the same number.
Charlie Vlk