Heisler build.

[metalworkertom]

Mocked up here. But I'm gaining confidence about this build. I'm thinking 60 ton could be 2 truck or 3 truck. I'm leaning towards 3 truck.



This Model will be appropriately the same size as the Atlas Shay .All wheel pickup and drive using modified Kato power trucks . Many thanks to everyone here that builds and posts. Those who answer questions . Pretty much what I know about this type of build I learned from reading here.

[peteski]

That should be an interesting scratchbuilding project!

I also like to mention that judging by the surface on which you photographed your model, you sure live up to your Railwire user name. 

[metalworkertom]

[quote author=peteski link=topic=50647.msg683311#msg683311 date=1602045943


I also like to mention that judging by the surface on which you photographed your model, you sure live up to your Railwire user name. 
[/quote]

Yes Peteski I do all sorts of metal work . Getting used to this small work is a challenge. My wife is the Jeweler in the family We do have a broad assortment of small tooling I hope aid's in my endeavors with this project. This will be all metal construction where ever possible with soldered or mechanical joinery.
This photo was taken on my coal forge best lighting I could come up with. I do hope to improve the photographs as I go.

[metalworkertom]

Here is where I am on the chassis. Cylinders and frame detail is just to get a feel for the general look. The trucks will need to be inset to accommodate a larger wheel diameter and keep it lower overall.
The Kato power trucks will be modified to remove the side franes . As Gerd did on his located here.
https://waldbahner.de/en/2018/09/waldbahn-gazette-west-side-lumber-co-heisler-2-in-spur-n/
Thanks Randgust for that link .
The driveshafts will run to a central gear tower ( transmission) at the end of the boiler. A 8 mm Faulhaber mounted in the boiler will drive the gear tower . Gear reduction will be in the transmission as well as possibly driving the dummy under chassis drive shaft and crank shaft journals.

[randgust]

There's just nothing easy about a Heisler.

I did my own kitbash back in 1976, using Atlas/Roco parts (hacked GP chassis and 0-6-0 switcher wheels).  8x8, it's on its third motor, and it still runs great.  But it's stuck with the 9' wheelbase diesel trucks and has gained the name 'Bigfoot'.  But it's still a better puller and performer than the Atlas Shay.

I've done a ton of modified Kato critter chassis.   The centered gear tower means that the driveshaft has to swing, so the shorter the shaft the tighter the angle and you start running out of room fast.   Gerd did his masterful West Side Heisler with one powered truck, I've done my Climaxes and a 28-ton Shay the same way.   Gerd went through the epic effort of moving fabricated pickup strips to the inside of the wheels to get the side rods on the outside, etch the side rods and wheel overlays.  I have a full set.    But you're still stuck with slightly long wheelbase.   I managed to get a full set of the etched parts from Gerd for my own build, but that one-truck powered thing means that I'll end up with a great-looking loco that won't perform as good as what I already have.   

I've also looked hard at the Atlas Shay trucks, as they have the right sized wheels and the right wheelbase.  And  spoked wheels on one side at least so if you can find more wheels you can beat it.   But the truck pivot is at the worm, the motor shaft has fixed worms, and the frame that holds all this is very tricky to modify.   Haven't completely ruled it out but never carried through with it either.

I've always wanted to do one right, which to me means 8x8 drive, right wheels, right wheelbase, and a rotating crankshaft.   I got my 25-ton Climax right and it's a honey.   Same deal with the Heisler, until I can do it right, Bigfoot hangs in there.    I've REALLY wanted to develop a kit, but it needs a lot of metal etching and a solid parts supply and the parts supply thing is really an issue in N. 

One thing you might want to look at is the gear tower/motor in the Kato NW2.  That's a sweet 5-pole motor, and the driveshaft goes under it.   Same universals as the 11-105.    I got another NW2 a while back just to expiriment for parts with.   That tower and motor assembly is not available from Kato though, you'll have to get either a full NW2 or a full mechanism to get it.  I did full plans and concluded that not only could I fit it in, but power a dummy crank.   Still couldn't figure out the worm/truck interface though on a non-Kato truck.

I put an 8mm Faulhaber in the Climax B, and it's dead silent, but the low-RPM torque is tricky.   It's a little difficult to control, but wow, is it ever smooth.   Motorman has passed, so I don't know where you'd get them now except maybe the auction site.

I just rechecked the Showcase Miniatures web page, and they finally do have the power unit for N in stock, not cheap, but a solid design.   I know that Walter Vail did a full Heisler kit for a while, it's no longer shown anywhere though, I've seen photos to prove it.    He may have some parts left over (or you can use his Shay parts) for more details.   I got a copy of the instruction sheet for that kit and you can see the fatal flaw - he had a rough time getting an unpowered front truck to roll properly and recommended coating the wheels with Bullfrog Snot so they didn't just slide along.  So the front truck became not only unpowered, but no pickup either.   That's a problem.

I've tried a couple different similar power trucks and the flaws have been two; first that the wheels were just respaced Z wheels and tracked terribly, and second that they were incredibly noisy.  I see Walter's new power truck design has an extended shaft and a plastic spur, so that's exciting.    Unsure if there's a way to design two power trucks in there, but maybe on a big enough Heisler.   I've always been after a 47-tonner (think Bluestone Mining & Smelting 1 in CA)
https://www.willitsnews.com/2016/11/29/veteran-locomotive-turns-100-this-month/
That's the sister serial number to 'my engine' that I have the original builder's photo for - Wheeler & Dusenbury 7.
http://www.randgust.com/wd7.jpg

The secret to my Climax B was cutting a worm gear into a universal, so it could power the jackshaft.  That's worked incredibly well.  One of those old Roco plastic worms and the related gears worked.  Similarly, if you could do that with a spur gear it could power a Heisler crankshaft.   It should be right though, not spinning like crazy on an HO Rivarossi Heisler.

Combine that power truck and extended shaft with Gerds overlays and parts and I might take another shot at this, but only after I finish my PRR D16sb.

[delamaize]

Did Someone say N scale Heisler?

Inspired by Randgust, I decided quite a few years ago to try my hand at a Heisler also. It's not really based on any particular prototype. But, like my Class B Climax, I decided to make something that could be recognized as what it is suppose to represent, rather than a specific locomotive.

Mine is quite a bit different than Randgust's, I used highly modified Kato Shorty-b truck for the rear, and scratchbuilt a truck for the front. The rear truck is the only powered truck. The wheels are some I had laying around from a LL SW, which I made a jig to get the rod pin holes in the same place on all the wheels. The rods are just brass strip I built on a jig so they were the same length. the way I placed the motor, and how I did the drive for the crank, lead me to do the weird jack shaft thing on top of the worm, on the power gear. It has been reliable thought. Speaking of the crank shaft, It does spin, and the U joint on the front portion, behind the dummy truck, does work. It's all scratchbuilt, and took me countless hours of tweaking, building, rebuilding and redesigning to get it right. Normally, it has a simulated bottom of the fire box/ash pan to cover the gearing for the crankshaft, but it has come up missing, and I have not had a chance to build another one. At one time It did have piston rods also, but they were a source of a bind that I couldn't work out, so they got cut out.

Overall, it runs ok, pickup is an issue, with the inside bearing surfaces being used for the transfer of power. It's not nearly as heavy as it needs to be with this type of pickup, But I can't cram any more weight in it. When it does run, it's pretty smooth. Power is pretty anemic though, It's only good for about 5 MT log cars and a caboose on the flat and level. Overall, it's a neat locomotive, and it is fun to see people's reaction when I do run it. I usually run the Climax, because it pulls more, has better pick up, and is more impressive to watch run, with the jack shafts flying around.

Good Luck and I look forward to your progress!!

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[randgust]

Here's Bigfoot the Heisler.    8x8, has been running since '76, was in MR.   Brass boiler, cast metal details cut off of other boilers.  Styrene cab.  Has been repainted and redecaled once.   Started with the Atlas motor, put in a Trix U28 motor, wore that out, now has  a Kato 11-103 five-pole in it.  Wheels are the Roco 0-6-0 switcher wheels, and siderods cut down from same.  Frame was chopped shorter and reglued with epoxy.

This is really pretty primitive compared to what I can do now, but the fact that it's one of the oldest running locomotives I now have, and the design has held up as well as it has, and it pulls and tracks as well as it does - it's turned into an interesting challenge to 'do better' and raise the bar with it's replacement.   

[metalworkertom]

Thanks for sharing your builds Randgust and Delamaize. Both good looking Models. Randgust there are some very good points in your first comments some I had thought of some not. I'll have to revisit a couple of those soon. Have been doing some more research . And recently received my American Beauty resistance soldering set up. Update coming soon.

[up1950s]

I was hoping with that SW-1 a retrofit Heisler might come from God . Good luck on your build .

[JMaurer1]

I was hoping that Atlas would do one after they did the Shays (they did it in G gauge along with a Climax), but now you can't get the Shays and it's been years since they originally released the Shay. The Heisler is one of my favorite locomotives...

[metalworkertom]

The 1912 Heisler catalog showed the 60 ton 60-8-40 having .
16 3/4 " x 14 bore and stroke
8 wheel drive
40" drivers
Ridgid whl base 66"
Total whl base 28' 10"
Total Length 38' 2"
Extreme Height 12' 2"
Extreme Width 9' 6 "
I'm using the drawing from the Steam Cyclopedia as my base It's pretty close in many ways . At this time the firebox had been lowered to allow less of a angle on the boiler. Total model length will be 2.9" . This and other measurements derived from the drawing. Here is a good photo of approximately the size in comparison to a person.






Now I'm also toying with the idea of adding the third truck also powered to the 2 truck body. Not prototypical that I have seen , normally the third truck carried the water with the wood or coal behind the cab. The area I'm modeling my Logging operation in has plenty of water . But the swamps around and including Lake Ponchatrain La are brackish and full of fine sediment. So just adding a third truck with additional water makes sense to me. Photo with Louisiana Cypress Engine with the tank car that accompanied the Engines every trip.

[metalworkertom]

The Drawing shows 42" wheels. I have found no other resource showing 42" wheels. So I will go with 40" wheels.


What I had that was closest was from the Atlas Davenport. The measurements went from .25 ( 40" ) to .268 ( 42.8 " ) they also had a solid metal back that will be needed for pickup.



However spokes are needed . So a Bachmann wheel fro a 0-6-0 is the spoke donor. First I mounted the Atlas wheel on a step collet and hand turned the center out about .025 . ( Later I just used a glue collet)


Then I mounted the Bachmann wheel and cut the metal tire and back off the encapsulated the plastic spokes.



This gave me the parts needed to move forward with the truck modifications. The Bachmann rim will not be used.

[mmagliaro]

I'm confused.  Why did you have to cut out the center from the Bachmann wheel?  Couldn't that spoked wheel just be used as is ?
Here's another idea... the spoked wheels on the Rivarossi/Atlas 0-4-0 are that small, and have really nice spoked centers with crank holes all ready to go.  Trim down the flanges for code 55 and Bob's Your Uncle, you're good to go.

[metalworkertom]

I'm confused.  Why did you have to cut out the center from the Bachmann wheel?  Couldn't that spoked wheel just be used as is ?

The Bachmann wheels measured .281 - .285 or almost 45 inches.
Here's another idea... the spoked wheels on the Rivarossi/Atlas 0-4-0 are that small, and have really nice spoked centers with crank holes all ready to go.  Trim down the flanges for code 55 and Bob's Your Uncle, you're good to go.

I didn't have those available in the parts box .

[randgust]

Back in the Roco Atlas years I bought a lot of extra parts, including everything I'd need to maintain my Heisler  The Roco 0-6-0 (saddletank, not the square tank) is where I got my wheels from, as well as the rods and pins.  It's held up well, if I could figure out how to get a short-wheelbase truck using those wheels I'd probably do it.   Like I said, the Atlas Shay is the only thing I've found with a truck wheelbase that short that has inside pickups on it.

If you don't already have it, I highly recommend the "Heisler, an unusual locomotive" by Kline, used ones are out on Amazon, even soft cover.  That book has a lot of drawings and dimensions in in it.   Heisler, like Climax, used a lot of common parts between various classes of locomotives.   That drawing you have is not really identified that well but if you check the dimensions out against the class list in the book you can do it that way.   The biggest 3-truck, 90-ton Heislers weren't all that common and the only one I've ever seen in the flesh is the one at Cass.   I've cabridden that one and it really is like riding in an off-balance washing machine, just like my father related it to me.

https://mountainrailwv.com/tour/heisler-6/

Here's Gerds, and what you want to pay attention to on his is how he modified the Kato critter trucks.   It's pretty awesome.
https://waldbahner.de/en/2018/09/waldbahn-gazette-west-side-lumber-co-heisler-2-in-spur-n/

One thing I did make - your choice but I have parts - is the Radley-Hunter style stack like on W&D 7.   I put one on my Lima 2-6-0.  Original is made from turned aluminum and the castings are pewter.   The dome castings, bell, etc. are commercial - see Republic Locomotive Works as the best (and sometimes only) source of this stuff.   This is the type of stack shown on that drawing.
http://www.randgust.com/HVR5042%20final%205.jpg