Induction power

[DKS]

For a long time I've wondered if it would be practical to deliver power to a locomotive via induction. Mount a series of emitter coils along the underside of the track, and a pickup coil in the loco fuel tank. Wouldn't be practical for a whole layout, but maybe just yards and switching areas.

@peteski correctly inferred what I had in my mind...

...a series of long oval coils placed directly under the ties (to minimize the air gap between the coils in the layout and the model).  Maybe the coils could be incorporated into sectional roadbed track (like Unitrack), to make it modular and easy to install.

Discussion?

[nickelplate759]

Some maglev trains work this way. 

One disadvantage or complication might be the need for control blocks. I'm pretty sure that everything within one block will need to move in the same direction at the same speed.

On the other hand, I think you could just put permanent magnets in any car and it would become motorized.  That could be interesting.

[tehachapifan]

I can tell already this is going to be one of those times where I'll need to employ the "just nod like you know what everyone's talking about" maneuver.

[DKS]

Some maglev trains work this way. 

One disadvantage or complication might be the need for control blocks. I'm pretty sure that everything within one block will need to move in the same direction at the same speed.

On the other hand, I think you could just put permanent magnets in any car and it would become motorized.  That could be interesting.

The idea here is to use induction solely to supply power to the locomotive--instead of rails. From there on out, a wireless form of DCC takes care of direction, etc. No blocks required.

[peteski]

The idea here is to use induction solely to supply power to the locomotive--instead of rails. From there on out, a wireless form of DCC takes care of direction, etc. No blocks required.

Exactly.  There are already such systems used in large-scale (garden) railroads.  That doesn't mean that the receiver is large - those can be quite small.  Or maybe even develop new control system based on WiFi or even Bluetooth technology.

[nickelplate759]

Ah - so induction for power delivery (like the wireless charging in some current cell phones), not for locomotion (like the mag-lev train I mentioned).

That's different.

Neat idea!

[dem34]

I imagine it wouldn't work with DCC but an induction system might be interesting for DC micro layouts with lots of opportunities for iffy pickup. I suggested the overhead IR system thing that didn't sell very well because I was thinking more in line with what would work with DCC to keep a cap charged. But of course that doesn't work if there is any scenery above the track.

 And beyond that would there be any danger to an induction system? If it would work how I remember it working from High School BioChem wouldn't stray bits of metal or pooled liquid heat up over time?

[peteski]

I imagine it wouldn't work with DCC but an induction system might be interesting for DC micro layouts with lots of opportunities for iffy pickup. I suggested the overhead IR system thing that didn't sell very well because I was thinking more in line with what would work with DCC to keep a cap charged. But of course that doesn't work if there is any scenery above the track.

 And beyond that would there be any danger to an induction system? If it would work how I remember it working from High School BioChem wouldn't stray bits of metal or pooled liquid heat up over time?

As I mentioned few posts earlier, I envision the induction coupling just to supply power.  The trains scan still be controlled independently but some for of digital control.

As far as dangers go, this type of power transfer is now being used for cell phones and other devices (like toothbrushes) and they seem to be safe to use.

[railnerd]

Unfortunately, it is a surprisingly inefficient way of getting power to a small device.  Being on rails is probably an advantage, but that is a LOT of coils to put around.  I could see using it on a “fueling track” to charge a battery.

-Dave

[Steveruger45]

This discussion just tweaked my curiosity and had me thinking of the hoverboard in the Back to the Future 2  movie

But seriously, for those that may know, what sort of size coils / power requirements would be needed beneath the track to make something like this work?

[peteski]

If you Google "designing wireless charging system" you will find articles like:

https://www.st.com/en/applications/power-supplies-and-converters/wireless-chargers.html
https://www.electronicproducts.com/Power_Products/Power_and_Control/Wireless_charging_basic_design_considerations.aspx
https://www.idt.com/us/en/products/power-management/wireless-power/introduction-to-wireless-battery-charging

And many others. Of course most are geared towards smart phone charging, but they provide some ideas as to what  is involved in the design.

[Lemosteam]

What about using both rail for primary delivery, and induction for a secondary or backup through troublesome areas like switch frogs and crossings, or is it the direct and induction cannot be used simultaneously?

[DKS]

What about using both rail for primary delivery, and induction for a secondary or backup through troublesome areas like switch frogs and crossings, or is it the direct and induction cannot be used simultaneously?

Might be a possibility, although it might also add to the complexity. Dunno--this is all blue-sky "imagineering" that most likely won't go anywhere anyway.

[kiwi_al]

This is interesting I remember looking at this when I was a teenager!!!
So, I volunteer Pete to build a proof of concept track and report back!!

[Steveruger45]

Yes, the Pete would have at least another place to charge his cell phone. Depending on position the cell phone could be used as a bumper while charging. 😀