Locomotive Class/Marker Lights Detail Part

[mstl 246]

I've been trying to find a few parts for a detailing project but haven't had much luck.

I am looking for locomotive marker lights in N scale, not the type that would be on a caboose and have a lantern shape. They were commonly found on first generation diesel power. I think they are called marker lights, also have seen them called class lights but haven't found much while searching either term.

Here is a link to a HO scale version of what I am looking for: http://americanscalemodels.com/HO/HO_Detail_Parts?product_id=1732

Shapeways has over one hundred pages of items when I searched for this, if I missed a store of a trw member with them let me know!

Nat

[nickelplate759]

Detail Associates makes such a thing, although the detail isn't too fine:

https://www.walthers.com/marker-lamps-round-pkg-2

[mstl 246]

Thanks George! I completely spaced out the Walthers website

Nat

[hegstad1]

Never mind! 

[robert3985]

I've been trying to find a few parts for a detailing project but haven't had much luck.

I am looking for locomotive marker lights in N scale, not the type that would be on a caboose and have a lantern shape. They were commonly found on first generation diesel power. I think they are called marker lights, also have seen them called class lights but haven't found much while searching either term.

Here is a link to a HO scale version of what I am looking for: http://americanscalemodels.com/HO/HO_Detail_Parts?product_id=1732

Shapeways has over one hundred pages of items when I searched for this, if I missed a store of a trw member with them let me know!

Nat

@mstl 246 , Athearn offered their Big Boy classification lights as separate parts for a while, and I bought up several to replace broken parts.  Maybe they've still got them in stock.

Photo (1) - Athearn Big Boy classification light:


Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[cv_acr]

I think they are called marker lights, also have seen them called class lights but haven't found much while searching either term.

Terminology:

Markers are displayed on the rear end of a train.

Classification lights display classification signals on the lead locomotive of a train. Usually in conjunction with similarly coloured flags. White flags/lights for an extra train not on the timetable schedule, green flags/lights for a regularly scheduled train with additional section(s) following on the same schedule.

[peteski]

Terminology:

Markers are displayed on the rear end of a train.

Classification lights display classification signals on the lead locomotive of a train. Usually in conjunction with similarly coloured flags. White flags/lights for an extra train not on the timetable schedule, green flags/lights for a regularly scheduled train with additional section(s) following on the same schedule.

While you are correct, because they are not prototype experts (or are not very accurate), many modelers and  manufacturers/vendors could be calling them either classification (class) or marker lights interchangeably.

[nickelplate759]

Terminology:

Markers are displayed on the rear end of a train.

Classification lights display classification signals on the lead locomotive of a train. Usually in conjunction with similarly coloured flags. White flags/lights for an extra train not on the timetable schedule, green flags/lights for a regularly scheduled train with additional section(s) following on the same schedule.

So, (and this is not meant to be a smart-a$$ question) - the terminology is based on direction?  Lights at the front of the train are class lights, and at the back are markers?  So if the locomotive is pushing the train, the lights on the locomotive are markers, but if it is pulling then they are class lights?

[cv_acr]

So, (and this is not meant to be a smart-a$$ question) - the terminology is based on direction?  Lights at the front of the train are class lights, and at the back are markers?  So if the locomotive is pushing the train, the lights on the locomotive are markers, but if it is pulling then they are class lights?

That's a bit simplistic, but essentially, sort of? Really it has to do with function though. Some railroads had red lights (for markers) along with the white/green classification lights. While their usage is different, they're usually mounted together or indeed use the same housing with a movable lens. So they kinda get combined together in the way they're installed but are used in very different ways. Some modern engines like Conrail's SD80MACs that were produced after the class lights were obsolete came with obvious red markers still for use as pushers.

White and green lights and flags were used under the old time table and train order rules to identify when additional trains are being run that aren't on the normal timetable. Under that type of operation these signals were critical to moving traffic.

The red lights are tail end markers. (Part of the rulebook definition of a "train" involves the display of markers: "An engine with or without cars with markers displayed.")

TL:DR explanation of why this part may be referred to as both class lights and/or markers, but technically class lights and markers are semantically different things with different functions and usage under different rules, even if physically the same.

[peteski]

TL:DR explanation of why this part may be referred to as both class lights and/or markers, but technically class lights and markers are semantically different things with different functions and usage under different rules, even if physically the same.

Yes, for example the Big-Boy "light fixture" (shown in reply #4 of this thread) would have 3 or 4 various color lenses (red. clear, green) and could be rotated to  the desired color as the situation dictated.

[mstl 246]

Athearn offered their Big Boy classification lights as separate parts for a while, and I bought up several to replace broken parts.  Maybe they've still got them in stock.

Thanks for the info Bob, will go search the Athearn site.

I used both terms Chris since I have seen both used to described the same thing by some designers like Pete mentioned, thanks for explaining the differences.

Nat

[Cajonpassfan]

Yes, for example the Big-Boy "light fixture" (shown in reply #4 of this thread) would have 3 or 4 various color lenses (red. clear, green) and could be rotated to  the desired color as the situation dictated.

Well, since we are talking about late steam era practices, not exactly. Classification signals (class lights) could only be white, for an “extra” train not in timetable, or green, for a following section of a scheduled train. They could only display one color at a time, white (clear) OR green, regardless of direction of the lens.

Markers, normally red, marking the end of a train while running, had red, yellow (and sometimes even green lenses depending on railroad) permanently installed and could be physically rotated when stopped (you wouldn’t want an approaching train confusing a marker light with a red signal).

In the very unlikely event of a Big Boy running in reverse behind a caboose as a pusher, the permanently wired electric class lights would be turned off and portable markers would be likely be hung somewhere on the locomotive.

I’m attaching a couple of pics from a Santa Fe 1948 rulebook, which I believe is fairly typical of the era.
Now if we could only get nice models of these fixtures....whatever people want to call them 
Otto K.

[peteski]

Well, since we are talking about late steam era practices, not exactly. Classification signals (class lights) could only be white, for an “extra” train not in timetable, or green, for a following section of a scheduled train. They could only display one color at a time, white (clear) OR green, regardless of direction of the lens.

Markers, normally red, marking the end of a train while running, had red, yellow (and sometimes even green lenses depending on railroad) permanently installed and could be physically rotated when stopped (you wouldn’t want an approaching train confusing a marker light with a red signal).

In the very unlikely event of a Big Boy running in reverse behind a caboose as a pusher, the permanently wired electric class lights would be turned off and portable markers would be likely be hung somewhere on the locomotive.

I’m attaching a couple of pics from a Santa Fe 1948 rulebook, which I believe is fairly typical of the era.
Now if we could only get nice models of these fixtures....whatever people want to call them 
Otto K.

Thanks for the lesson in rules about ATSF marker lights.  I'm not an expert on railroad rules - I was simply observing that the Big-Boy's markers are spherical with what appears to be 4 lenses.  I assumed that those markers could be rotated to change their color as needed.  But that was just my speculation. Some photos of Big-Boy's (as static displays) seem to show that there are multiple colors of lenses installed in them.



The 4006 (top image) shows green lenses facing forward, and outside, while the inside-facing lens seems to be clear (white).
The 4014 (middle image) has green lenses facing forward and what could pass for red lenses on the inside and outside of the visible sides of the markers.
The 4023 seems to be an oddball, since the markers appear to only have 2 or possibly 3 lenses, and the forward facing lenses appear amber (which is not a color that was used).

[robert3985]

Research Rule #1: Never trust what you see at a railroad museum.

My research is concerning the Union Pacific Railroad of course.  Your road may differ somewhat. Google is your friend.

Classification rules for the UP were that "extra" trains, or those trains not on the schedule, were designated by wearing the engine's number, with an "X" in front of it on the classification number boards on the smokebox of the engines most of the time, and white classification lights, and/or white flags.  So Peter, all of the photos you have of Big Boys with their engine numbers on the classification boards with an "X" in front of the numbers, should have white classification lights.

Almost ALL of UP freight traffic up Weber/Echo Canyons were designated as "extras" and wore the engine's number with an "X" in front of it on the classification boards up on either side of the stack.  Sometimes, there would be white flags on either side of the smokebox, or pilot in their respective flag holders...but not all the time.  The rule evidently was that either the lamps or flags MUST be used on "extras" along with the "X" in front of the engine number on the classification board, the lamps at night, and the flags in the day.  Trains that were running when the dawn or dusk transitioned between daylight or night time wore both flags and the classification lamps were turned on when it got dark. Extras run during dusk and night didn't have the flags displayed, just the lights.

Scheduled trains had the train number displayed on their classification boards with dark classification lamps and no flags.

Scheduled trains that had more than one section were designated by the train number being displayed on the classification boards, with every section of that train bearing the green lamps, green flags or both, except the LAST SECTION which wore only the train number on the numberboard, with dark class lamps and no green flags, signifying there were no following sections.  Illuminated green lamps and/or green flags always meant there was a following section.

Many times (and I am not sure why it wasn't ALL THE TIME) UP would designate the train sections by numbering the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. sections on the classification numberboard in front of the train number, with the first, green-flagged and green-lamped sections arriving in an ascending order. For example 1-266, 2-266, with the last section 3-266 (or however many sections there were) arriving with dark class lamps and no green flags, signifying the whole train had arrived and no more sections were following. And, sometimes, all the sections were designated with only the train number, and the appropriate green flags/class lamps, the lack of which indicating the last section of that train.

Note that "the train number" was NOT the engine number for scheduled trains.

Engine numbers were usually on a plaque on the front of the engine or on the headlight bracket, and on either side of the headlamp, and on either side of the cab under the cab windows, and on the rear of the tender.

Helpers on the front would mimic the prime train engine's class number and class lamp/flag configuration, but when cut off from the train they were helping, they became extras, with their engine number proceeded with an "X" on the classification numberboards, white flags and/or white class lamps...with red markers on the rear of the tender indicating the end of the train on the mainline.

Helpers on the rear were "extras" and used their own engine numbers with the "X" in front of it on their classification boards, along with both white flags and white class lamps, and when turned at the top of the grade, merely had to turn on the red marker lamps on the rear of the tender to become a "train" for the trip back down the grade.

Marker lamps indicated the rear of a train, and were always red when on the mainline (at least for UP), lit during dusk and nighttime.

If the train was pulled off onto a siding and stopped, with the switch reset for the mainline, the caboose's marker lanterns were rotated so that the rear-facing marker lamp lenses were green, indicating a stopped train ON THE SIDING, both ends of the train securely on the siding, not fouling the mainline.

If, for some reason, any steam engine were to run light in reverse back to its place of origin, classification lamps would be switched to red, or more likely left dark, and red marker lamps hung on the front of the engine (now the rear of the "train"), numbers on the classification numberboards would be "X" plus the engine's number, and the tender light would be turned on acting as a headlamp, with white flags mounted on the rear of the tender, or classification lamps with white lenses during dusk and night time.  The engine and tender were acting as both engine and caboose as far as classification lamps/flags/classification numberboards and marker lamps were concerned, and the same rules applied to that single engine as to an entire, complete train.  When looking at photos of various road's engines, it becomes apparent from the marker lamps on the front of some engines, in addition to the classification lights , that they were run regularly in reverse on the mainline.

Looking at switchers, it appears that they didn't use classification lamps/flags or numberboards while switching within yard limits.  However, road engines were often used as switchers as trains became longer and heavier, such as both SP and UP Consolidations, but while switching within yard limits, they weren't assigned a train number, nor did they use their classification lamps. Sometimes they retained their numberboards and class lights but didn't use them, or while in switcher service, the numberboards and class lamps were removed.

I don't want to give the impression that the classification lamp/classification numberboard/marker lamp rules applied only to steam engines.  The rules were exactly the same for diesels, but as more modern ways of running and identifying trains became standardized and the fires were put out on steam locomotives, the rules changed, with the classification lamp, flag and classification numberboard rules being gone by around 1985...25 to 30 years after the last revenue steam engines were run on American rails.

Please note, that different railroads during different times had different rules, with the Pennsy and AT&SF being the roads most often used as examples of being "different"...Pennsy using red lamps much more and AT&SF using amber lenses for part of its marker lamp rules.

Here are some photos illustrating some of the points I've written about...

Photo (1) - Extra 4018, pulled by Big Boy 4018, pulls out of Ogden Yard with white flags and unilluminated white marker lamps, turned off because it's daylight hours:


Photo (2) - Extra 4009, pulled by Big Boy 4009, pulls out of Ogden Yard with only white classification lamps...NO white flags.  This train will be traveling most of the way to Green River during dusk/night time hours:


Photo (3) - Scheduled Passenger Train #3 arrives in Ogden with green flags & unlit green classification lamps, being pulled by FEF-2 #832 in fancy "Greyhound" colors with late white stripes & lettering.  The green flags & classification lamps means that there is at least one more section of #3 following:


Photo (4) - Sure enough, the last section of Train #3 arrives in Ogden with no flags and dark classification lamps, pulled by FEF-2 #831 with the number "3" in its classification numberboard.  No flags and dark classification lamps means that this is the last section of train #3 and the entire train has arrived at its destination.


Photo (5) - It's 1946 and Extra Train #X4010, pulled by Big Boy 4010 with both white marker lamps (unlit) and white flags, is heading to Green River with over 25 heavyweight and troop passenger cars full of GI's coming home from the Pacific Theater.  Don't tell me that Big Boys never pulled a passenger train while in regular service!


Photo (6) - What's on the end of Troop Train Extra 4010?  Why, a fine example of a UP CA-1 wooden caboose in its early brown paint with white lettering of course! ...and with marker lamps out and maybe lit, with red facing rear and green facing outward although the lanterns were only required to be lit during dusk/night time hours:


Photo (7) - Extra #3950 being pulled by coal-fired Challenger 3950 and helped by UP "MacArthur" #2284 with its classification numberboards set to "X3950" and running white classification lamps and no flags, round Echo Curve, passing over the newly completed Lincoln Highway Bridge sometime in August of 1946. #2284 will cut off of Extra #3950 at Wahsatch at the top of the grade, turn itself on the wye there, change its classification numbers to X2284, turn on red marker lamps on the rear of the tender, get permission from the station master at Wahsatch and run light back to Ogden, to help another over-tonnage freight up the Wasatch Grade:


Photo ( 8 ) - UP Consolidation #251, leased to the SP & UP jointly owned switching company (the OUR&D - Ogden Union Railroad & Depot Co.) while working within the Ogden Yard limits requires no classification numbers or lights.  Both UP and SP Consolidations worked together on the same yard tracks, and later diesel switchers from both railroads did the same in their respective, distinctive paint schemes:


Well...this has been FUN!!    I didn't include photos of UP TTT's on the rear of trains because of the ridiculously long photo addresses that Googlephotos tacks on to each and every photo I use from my Googlephotos account. I was getting vibes I was getting close to my character limit per post here at TRW...

Anyway, maybe both the explanation and photos will clear up any misconceptions about how a lot of railroads here in the USA were run during the transition era and afterwards.  Remember, Google is your friend for finding answers to questions about your particular railroad.  And for us asshats who thrive on this kind of minutia, I hope you like the photos!  Thanks Emil and Don!

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[peteski]

Bob, and others: thanks for wonderfully educational posts.  Bob, I'll take your word for it that the marker classification lights are either green or white since all the photos are black/white.    I have no reasons to doubt you, and what you state makes perfect sense.

But I still don't know whether those marker classification lamp enclosures could be rotated to show different classification (green or white) on the front, or the color had to be changed by manually replacing the lenses on a stationary marker classification lamp body.  Also, why were there 3 (or 4?) openings in the marker classification  lamp?  Were all of those openings exposed to the light source inside?  If that  is the case, then it would make sense that all the lenses on the marker  classification lamp should have the same color (not like what  is displayed in the museum locos?