Problem with Set-Up of ESU Lokprogrammer

[peteski]

Now that I have switched over to NCE for my new HOn3 layout (just for a change and my Digitrax went with my layout when sold) I needed to purchase a serial port to USB cable from ESU (best one to purchase) so I can connect my old laptop to the NCE command station according to JMRI experts to be able to adjust the sounds and other features in my Blackstone K27's. The NCE command station I have only has a serial port with which to connect to a PC.
Folks much smarter than me strongly suggested not to purchase any other brand.
Rod.

The USB/serial converter cables actually have some intelligence built-in to translate the USB protocol to the serial port type protocol.  There are several types of that "translator" chip used in those adapter cables. Some types only have limited capabilities. That is why some are better than others.  There can also be different versions of the Windows drivers for those various translator chips. The brand of cable ESU sells just happens to be one of the "good" ones.

[davefoxx]

Now that I have switched over to NCE for my new HOn3 layout (just for a change and my Digitrax went with my layout when sold) I needed to purchase a serial port to USB cable from ESU (best one to purchase) so I can connect my old laptop to the NCE command station according to JMRI experts to be able to adjust the sounds and other features in my Blackstone K27's. The NCE command station I have only has a serial port with which to connect to a PC.
Folks much smarter than me strongly suggested not to purchase any other brand.
Rod.

I switched over to NCE when I started this newest layout, too.  Nothing against the Digitrax system that I had on the old layout, which served me well for many years on a couple of layouts.  But, the distinct advantage of advanced consisting on NCE makes it a lot easier to use the Full Throttle features in a consist.  I have upgraded an Atlas GP40 and an Atlas GP40-2 to Full Throttle, and last night, I consisted them together and, using Drive Hold, was able to run them both up to Notch 8 before they started moving.  Sweet.

Tonight, I hope to watch a video that I found on YouTube about speed-matching with an Accutrack II speedometer and LokProgrammer.  Since I have both of these pieces of hardware, I want to check out if this is the new way I will speed-match.

DFF

[jdcolombo]

Tonight, I hope to watch a video that I found on YouTube about speed-matching with an Accutrack II speedometer and LokProgrammer.  Since I have both of these pieces of hardware, I want to check out if this is the new way I will speed-match.

DFF

FWIW, I've used an Accutrack, and although its fun to see the digital readout of the speed as the engine runs through it, I've found that the "old fashioned" method actually works better (plus you can't really use the Accutrack to adjust momentum).  That method is this:

1.  Find out which engine you are matching is the slowest in unmodified running.
2.  Set the 3-point speed curve (CV's 2, 5 and 6) to get what you want for start, mid and max speed.  Turn momentum off (e.g., CV3 and CV4 = 0).
3.  Put the same CV values as you got in Step 2 into the engine you want to speed match (the faster one).  It's momentum should be off, too.
4.  Put both engines on the track, separated by about 4 inches.  Consist them.  Crack open throttle and observe.  The faster engine probably will close slightly on the slower one, although maybe not at speed step 1, which will be mostly controlled by BEMF anyway.  Adjust CV2 using ops mode programming in that engine to match the slower engine if need be.
5.  Separate engines by 4" again.  Advance the throttle to 50%.  Observe.  The faster engine will close on the slower one.  Adjust CV6 on the faster engine until it matches speed.
6.  Advance throttle to 100%.  Repeat the observe/adjust for CV5.
7.  Adjust momentum for slow engine to what you want (ESU uses a default of 80 for files equipped with Drive Hold, and I find this to be pretty good).
8.  Put same values in Engine 2.
9.  Check acceleration momentum matching by putting engines on track, separated by 4", consist, and turn throttle up quickly to 100%.  If they don't match, adjust Engine 2's CV3.  Then crank the engines up to 100% throttle, quickly turn throttle to zero, and observe whether braking momentum matches.  If not, adjust CV4.

You're done.  This sounds harder that it is, although I've never tried it with an NCE system (I use Digitrax).  But I do get perfectly matched engines this way.

BTW, if you have grades on your layout, you might find that adjusting the BEMF cutoff (CV56) is useful to keep consisted engines from "bucking" going downgrade (maybe upgrade, too, although that's usually not a problem).  If bucking is a problem going downgrade (or any time), set CV56 in each engine to 120.  If bucking persists, lower the value in CV56 until it disappears (but don't go below about 50 - you need BEMF on at low speed for best low-throttle response).

John C.

[davefoxx]

FWIW, I've used an Accutrack, and although its fun to see the digital readout of the speed as the engine runs through it, I've found that the "old fashioned" method actually works better (plus you can't really use the Accutrack to adjust momentum).  That method is this:

1.  Find out which engine you are matching is the slowest in unmodified running.
2.  Set the 3-point speed curve (CV's 2, 5 and 6) to get what you want for start, mid and max speed.  Turn momentum off (e.g., CV3 and CV4 = 0).
3.  Put the same CV values as you got in Step 2 into the engine you want to speed match (the faster one).  It's momentum should be off, too.
4.  Put both engines on the track, separated by about 4 inches.  Consist them.  Crack open throttle and observe.  The faster engine probably will close slightly on the slower one, although maybe not at speed step 1, which will be mostly controlled by BEMF anyway.  Adjust CV2 using ops mode programming in that engine to match the slower engine if need be.
5.  Separate engines by 4" again.  Advance the throttle to 50%.  Observe.  The faster engine will close on the slower one.  Adjust CV6 on the faster engine until it matches speed.
6.  Advance throttle to 100%.  Repeat the observe/adjust for CV5.
7.  Adjust momentum for slow engine to what you want (ESU uses a default of 80 for files equipped with Drive Hold, and I find this to be pretty good).
8.  Put same values in Engine 2.
9.  Check acceleration momentum matching by putting engines on track, separated by 4", consist, and turn throttle up quickly to 100%.  If they don't match, adjust Engine 2's CV3.  Then crank the engines up to 100% throttle, quickly turn throttle to zero, and observe whether braking momentum matches.  If not, adjust CV4.

You're done.  This sounds harder that it is, although I've never tried it with an NCE system (I use Digitrax).  But I do get perfectly matched engines this way.

This is exactly what I do, too, except I like the speedometer to set max speed at 70 smph and mid speed at 35 smph on all locomotives.  If I can get the locomotives within 1 smph of each other, they seem to consist just fine, but, as you noted, momentum is by trial and error only to really get them matched perfectly.

BTW, if you have grades on your layout, you might find that adjusting the BEMF cutoff (CV56) is useful to keep consisted engines from "bucking" going downgrade (maybe upgrade, too, although that's usually not a problem).  If bucking is a problem going downgrade (or any time), set CV56 in each engine to 120.  If bucking persists, lower the value in CV56 until it disappears (but don't go below about 50 - you need BEMF on at low speed for best low-throttle response).

This is good information!  I though BEMF had to be on or off.  Good to know that it's adjustable!  Thanks for the suggestions on settings, John.  Actually, my mainline is level, but I do have a grade on the branchline.  However, since the planned staging yard will be so short, the trains going up the hill will only be one locomotive and two to three freight cars.  So, hopefully, I will have no troubles with BEMF.

Thanks,
DFF

[reinhardtjh]

BTW, if you have grades on your layout, you might find that adjusting the BEMF cutoff (CV56) is useful to keep consisted engines from "bucking" going downgrade (maybe upgrade, too, although that's usually not a problem).  If bucking is a problem going downgrade (or any time), set CV56 in each engine to 120.  If bucking persists, lower the value in CV56 until it disappears (but don't go below about 50 - you need BEMF on at low speed for best low-throttle response).

John C.

There was just a thread (Subject:CV 56 and Consisting!!!) on the LokSound Yahoo group about this.  One poster recommended starting at 20 if you had this bucking problem. I have not verified since I my flat door has no grades but if you find going down to 50 hasn't solved it then lower apparently isn't necessarily bad.

[jdcolombo]

Yeah, actually I used the speedometer to set the mid and max speeds on my reference unit.  Then I matched everything to that.  In theory, at least, I can consist any of my 40 diesels with any other one - they all have ESU decoders, though about a third of them have LokPilot V.4's instead of LokSound.  In practice, I tend to keep the same units consisted forever - so much so that I ended up using the "hard" consist method (setting each unit's address to the lead unit), since Digitrax doesn't accommodate advanced consisting very well.  NCE is MUCH better for that and makes Drive Hold a lot easier to use.

John C.

[RBrodzinsky]

With ESU decoders, I have found that I can near perfectly speed match (momentum aside) simply by setting the max speeds with the Accutrax II, and then setting a linear speed table (after doing the BEMF auto set).   I have yet to find locos which don't consist nicely having done this.  If throwing a non-ESU decoder into the mix, wel....

But, yes, I still step each loco through a number of other speed steps to validate.  And, if I plan to run in permanent consists, I always plan to tweak using the above method;  just haven't had to change any CVs in the speed table in over a year while "tweaking".

[jdcolombo]

With ESU decoders, I have found that I can near perfectly speed match (momentum aside) simply by setting the max speeds with the Accutrax II, and then setting a linear speed table (after doing the BEMF auto set).   I have yet to find locos which don't consist nicely having done this.  If throwing a non-ESU decoder into the mix, wel....

But, yes, I still step each loco through a number of other speed steps to validate.  And, if I plan to run in permanent consists, I always plan to tweak using the above method;  just haven't had to change any CVs in the speed table in over a year while "tweaking".

Hmmm.  That's an interesting tidbit.  I'll have to try that with the new SD35 I got to test out Atlas' sound installation (which is very good, BTW - better than IM's first iteration in the SD40-2). 

John C.

[peteski]

Do you guys find a difference in speeds between a cold and warmed-up loco?  That is, at a certain speed step the loco will run at different speed depending whether it is cold (at the start of an operating sessison, after sitting for few days) and when it is warmed up (after running for several minutes).

[RBrodzinsky]

Not too much.  I will run a loco for 15-20 minutes at around 75% throttle before doing any speed setting / matching, though.  If the loco is brand new from the factory, I try to put at least 45 minutes on it before performing any installs or adjustments (which basically exposes any mechanical issues).

My train shed is not continuously heated in winter (only when I am out there), but I've never noticed any issues.  Of course, we are only talking about San Francisco Bay Area weather.  And I've never noticed an issue at show venues when firing up the layout in the early mornings (before the venue's heat has kicked in).

[Steveruger45]

There was just a thread (Subject:CV 56 and Consisting!!!) on the LokSound Yahoo group about this.  One poster recommended starting at 20 if you had this bucking problem. I have not verified since I my flat door has no grades but if you find going down to 50 hasn't solved it then lower apparently isn't necessarily bad.

I saw the same thread on the Yahoo group too.  Good to know and something I may try if needed.

[jdcolombo]

Do you guys find a difference in speeds between a cold and warmed-up loco?  That is, at a certain speed step the loco will run at different speed depending whether it is cold (at the start of an operating sessison, after sitting for few days) and when it is warmed up (after running for several minutes).

I don't really notice a difference, but I haven't actually run an experiment with the Accutrack to see.  Plus I figure that when I do an op session, everything is "cold" - I run the engines a couple of days before the session just to make sure none have developed issues, but they've been sitting for a couple of days by the time the session starts.  And during a session, the road diesels don't see a lot of action (maybe 5 minutes of running before they hit Bellevue and we do a power change).  So when I do speed matching, I don't run the engines around to warm them up first. 

John C.

[davefoxx]

I once read that it was wise to warm the locomotives up first before speed-matching.  In my experience, I have found that if I use the speedometer when they're cold, they might run at, say 66 smph and then go to 67 smph, and then 68 smph without touching the throttle after a couple of laps around the layout.  Nothing more than a couple of smph, though.  That's why I only warm them up for five or ten minutes.

DFF

[peteski]

Thanks for the info guys.  I suspected that locos which have been sitting for a while (cold) would  run slower than warmed up ones. But it appears that it is just couple of scale MPHs.

[Mark W]

When talking speedmatching, throw out the Accutracks.  Nothing even comes close to the ease of using the Boulder Creek Engineering Onboard Speedometer. It is by far my favorite and best ROI MRR accessory. 

I couple the boxcar to the locomotive and get a real-time readout of it's SMPH displayed on my phone.  After clearing the mainline, set the throttle to 50, adjust CV6 until the Speedometer reads 50.  Set throttle to 100, then adjust CV5 the same.  Dial the throttle down to 75, confirm speedometer reads 75, dial throttle to 35, 25, and 10 and you should see the speedometer read the same.  With ESU decoders, it's almost always right on the money.  TCS decoders will vary +/-3smph, but I think that's close enough.    And I think I've only ever had to adjust CV2 once.  The whole process takes as little as 30 seconds per locomotive, yes 30 seconds, and I am able to consist any unit with any other unit, including mixed decoders.