Atlas Shay - Old vs New

[ryan_wilkerson]

Looking for some advice for those who have added DCC in the Atlas Shay.

I am getting near the end of a 6+ year journey to convert my locomotives to DCC. I have a Shay from the 2007 run that says "DCC capable-motor isolated from frame":
https://web.archive.org/web/20111002031225/http://www.atlasrr.com/NLoco/nshay1.htm

Now that a revised version is out I'm wondering if there are any benefits (operationally and/or ease of DCC install) to buying a new one and selling the old? If it's about the same, I'll keep this one and work through the install.

[peteski]

If you did a TRW search for Atlas Shay, that woudl answer your question. I did the search for you. 

This post lists the changes made to the new run of those models:
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=34136.msg457443#msg457443
I don't understand the big deal about insulating the motor from the frame - it always was. 

Here is my DCC conversion of the original Shay: https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=37764.0

[ryan_wilkerson]

Peteski is my personal Ask Jeeves
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Thank you for the links, I'll give them a read. Your install looks very clean as usual.
-Ryan

If you did a TRW search for Atlas Shay, that woudl answer your question. I did the search for you. 

This post lists the changes made to the new run of those models:
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=34136.msg457443#msg457443
I don't understand the big deal about insulating the motor from the frame - it always was. 

Here is my DCC conversion of the original Shay: https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=37764.0

[mmagliaro]

I'm a little confused by this.   Are there two or three total runs of the Atlas Shay?
There is the first one, with the black Mashima motor, then the second one, with a silver-colored can motor of unknown origin.
Isn't there a third version?   I just bought one of these a couple of weeks ago, which I though was the latest (third) run.

[peteski]

I'm a little confused by this.   Are there two or three total runs of the Atlas Shay?
There is the first one, with the black Mashima motor, then the second one, with a silver-colored can motor of unknown origin.
Isn't there a third version?   I just bought one of these a couple of weeks ago, which I though was the latest (third) run.

Interesting . . .  I have one from the first run (black Mashima motor) and 2nd run (silver motor). So you think that there is a newer run?  I suppose. Unless the latest "run" is just a 2nd shipment of the 2nd run?  What does yours look like inside?  Either way, I suspect that the 2nd and that 3rd run likely are mechanically identical.

[JMaurer1]

There is a run that just came out about a month ago. Finally got my A&MR shay after two years of waiting. Haven't looked to see if its any different from the 2nd run yet.

[mmagliaro]

There is a run that just came out about a month ago. Finally got my A&MR shay after two years of waiting. Haven't looked to see if its any different from the 2nd run yet.

Yes.  That's the one.  I'm going to make a Portland Railway Light and Power Shay from it.  Atlas actually lettered one that way, and had the "Oak Grove Project" subtext on the cab.  Looking that up, I discovered it was a hydroelectric project begun in the 1920s not more than 10 miles from my house, and it was a standard gauge line.  So I have a perfect excuse to run a Shay on my loosely Oregon-based railroad.  But the Atlas model is too long, so I'll be chopping and bashing.

I'm not sure the motor is still a Mashima, but it could be - just unmarked.  That won't matter, I will be remotoring it and gearing it down anyway.

I'll pull the shell and peek inside for a photo later.

[Chris333]

One motor sits up and the other lays down:
http://www.spookshow.net/loco/atlasshay.html
I'd love to see you re-gear and chop one up as I was never happy with mine and it still sits in a box in pieces.

[mmagliaro]

Chris, I think it runs pretty well, as far as it goes, but it is way way too fast for a logging engine.  I'd like to see it have better low-end creep capability.  But otherwise, I wouldn't say I'm "unhappy" with it.  It actually runs pretty darn good and the detailing is very very good for a commercial model.

But... they do seem to have cheapened the motor.  Here's the insides:



That's an 8mm x 10mm motor.  I looked it up and could even find it by the Motraxx numbers on it.  It seems to sell for about $15 USD.
But I'd wager it's got a 3-pole armature inside it judging from the looks of it, and does not appear to be as nicely made as the Mashima motors.  A Mashima 1015, 1020, or 1024 would have the same body width and height.    The number of poles probably does not matter much.  The maximum power output listed by Motraxx is about 1/2 watt.  But a Mashima 1024, the same length as the Motraxx, is rated at double that, a full watt.   The Mashima 1020 is rated at  .68 watt, about 35% more.  Ya gets what ya pays for.

My plan is to use a dual-shaft Mashima with gearheads on each end to slow it down by a factor of 4.  I found some really nice metal-cased 8mm planetary gearheads on eBay for under 10 bucks.  They will require some acrobatics to mount them to a motor other than the one they come on, but they spin very quietly and smoothly, more like a Faulhaber (although not quite!), and far better than the plastic gearheads from Gizmoszone.  Plus, they accept a D-shaft input, not a pinion, so it won't be too awful bad to get them to work on another motor.

Peteski: Indeed, their light boards look a lot like what you did in your improvement!

I suspect they layed the motor down flat now so that a decoder could fit in there on top of it.

[Chris333]

Try MTL for Maxxon 0816 double shaft motors they use in their Z scale locos.

Mashima is supposed to be out of business.

Remember Gerd made a whole new 3D printed brass frame for the Atlas Shay to shorten it for HOn30:
http://blog.waldbahner.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Molino_15.jpg
http://blog.waldbahner.de/en/2015/03/h0e-10-ton-molino-shay/
http://blog.waldbahner.de/en/?s=molino

[mmagliaro]

Maxon double shaft motors are PRICEY... like more than I paid for this engine.   Although yes, they would be great.

I have some Mashimas stashed away and you can still find them here and there if you dig.  But you are right, Chris.
The supply is drying up.  I don't think the company is out of business.  I have read conflicting reports that
they can't get the magnets they used to use for the motors, so they stopped making them, or they went out of business,
or the business was sold.  I can't get a definitive source for what has really become of the company or the motors.

This is a bad thing.  Nothing else in a conventional armatured motor comes close to Mashima for power, durability, and selection of sizes.  Old Sagamis and NWSL motors pale in comparison to what a Mashima can do.

[mmagliaro]

A 3d printed, shortened, brass frame!   Nice.  But his blog does say that his 3D model was a little off, requiring him to have to make new worms.  Yikes.   And he doesn't appear to have that frame available at Shapeways for sale anyway.

But you did give me an idea.  I might see how hard it would be to just mill a new frame from a brass block and forget trying to cut a section out and splice the Atlas one. 

Curse you, Chris.  This was going to be an "easy" "relaxing" kitbash that I would take on after the 0-6-0 is done. 

[Chris333]

Just draw it up with Sketchup. His frame would have the different HO ash pan anyways.

[peteski]

Max, looking at the photos of my decoder install (I don't want to take mine apart right now), the reason that Mashima motor had the flat sides facing the sides of the loco is because it seems much larger than the latest silver motor.  It wouldn't fit the model any other way.  That also explains why Mashima is more powerful.  I agree that it is too bad that Atlas is using an inferior motor in the latest runs.  But I suspect that nowadays is very difficult to find small good quality (non coreless) motors.  Several N scale models from Minitrix use coreless motors.  But that makes them more expensive.

[mmagliaro]

Max, looking at the photos of my decoder install (I don't want to take mine apart right now), the reason that Mashima motor had the flat sides facing the sides of the loco is because it seems much larger than the latest silver motor.  It wouldn't fit the model any other way.  That also explains why Mashima is more powerful.  I agree that it is too bad that Atlas is using an inferior motor in the latest runs.  But I suspect that nowadays is very difficult to find small good quality (non coreless) motors.  Several N scale models from Minitrix use coreless motors.  But that makes them more expensive.

I agree it was a larger motor.   But that doesn't explain why a *comparable* motor is more powerful.
I was only looking at specs on Mashima motos that are the same width and height as the smaller one they have in there now (on the very latest 3rd run).  And even so, the 10mm Mashimas are more powerful.

That larger one they used before would have even more.