Spotting features on Kato F7's - old vs. new?

[randgust]

I got my original fleet of four Kato F7's (ABBA) when they first came out - the original mechanisms without pickup wipers and with Rapidos:

http://www.spookshow.net/loco/files/katofoldmech.jpg

They are getting tired, and they've always been noisy - at least in comparison to anything else I run.    I'd like to at least tinker with a new mechanism to see how this goes with what is supposedly a quieter and better-pickup drive:

http://www.spookshow.net/loco/files/katofnewmech.jpg

Now, here's the question.    Either at train shows or on the auction sites, what are the external spotting features, or Kato part numbers, or anything (including unit numbers), so that you can tell the two mechanisms in there if you see one without taking it apart?    I'm planning on swapping shells, too, but my impression was that you had to used the new glass inserts on the old shells and it would work.  I've put a ton of work on my shells, have no intention of changing those.   Since I've got to get four at some point I'm looking for unpopular roadnames, used units, or parts units.

At least Atlas changed the packaging so that if you see 'classic' you know what that means, sorta, but Kato doesn't and I don't really want to pick one up and discover that it has the same mechanism I already have.   I've read Mark's guide to these about six times and I still can't find anything for an external spotting feature to rely on here.  Clues?

[wcfn100]

I believe those without even the wipers are the only ones in the blue boxes.  Then they went to the low friction trucks and green boxes.

As far as the shell goes, the one external difference is the number boards.  Current production has open boards with a separate piece that fits in.  Not sure exactly when that started though.

Maybe just look for units with the Kato couplers?

Jason

[GhengisKong]

Blue box and looking at split frame from the bottom side are the main indicator for me. The blue box F units are some of my best performers. Aztec frames is the way to go to DCC them too.

[randgust]

Don't need DCC, but I've literally worn the wheels flat enough they screech going around curves, the frames have visible wear from the trucks turning so much.   Motor brushes are getting worn as well.    These were my first Kato units and replaced my 1970's four-unit fleet of Trix F7's!    And as much as they pull, four powered anything can pull the train now - I started with old Roco and Atlas cars with batteries and wheel wipers and now it's all Kato with Easy-peasy lighting.

Thanks - never occurred to me that they changed the BOX COLOR!

[leedabsme74]

If you decide to get new DCC friendly mechanisms for your existing shells, they will fit but you must obtain new glass to allow the shell to slide on without massive stretch and provide the correct retention to the new chassis.  Not a bad idea.  I obtained the new glass from the Kato website.

[Point353]

I got my original fleet of four Kato F7's (ABBA) when they first came out - the original mechanisms without pickup wipers and with Rapidos:
http://www.spookshow.net/loco/files/katofoldmech.jpg
http://www.spookshow.net/loco/files/katofnewmech.jpg

Now, here's the question.    Either at train shows or on the auction sites, what are the external spotting features, or Kato part numbers, or anything (including unit numbers), so that you can tell the two mechanisms in there if you see one without taking it apart?

According to Mark's guide, the revised mechanism was introduced in 1995.
So, if you want units with the original design mechanism, you'd want to look for F3's from the 1988 and 1990 production runs and F7's from 1992:
http://www.spookshow.net/loco/katof.html

This site has listings of the various models made in those three production runs:
https://web.archive.org/web/20000531061413/http://www.amherst-depot.com:80/katof3.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20000531050341/http://www.amherst-depot.com:80/f7katon-sclale.htm

[u18b]

Randy,

Before you spend to much money....
If you have not Beardenised them, you should try it.

I was astounded when I removed the inner bearing blocks what a difference it made- mostly because of those mega flywheels.

[randgust]

What I'm looking at is getting replacement units and just swapping shells, assuming that new glass insert fits the portholes on the original shells.   But there's still a lot of old stock out there and I don't want to buy another old design one by accident.  As I'm swapping shells there's a lot of latitude on roadname, condition, etc.  Don't care, only target is a new design mech.

Ron, I know you're right, but Bearden Block won't fix flat-tread wheel treads that now screech on curves.   And a powered ABBA set makes a whole lot of screech.    The last straw was that the brushes are worn enough that sometimes one of the units won't start without a hard physical nudge.  Which is OK unless they are down in the hidden storage yard.

[mmagliaro]

Randy, if noise, wheel wear and motor wear are the 3 issues, maybe it would actually be easier
to change out the motors and wheelsets, and then try the Bearden bearing block removal.

After all, Kato motors can be had for around $20-$25, and a set of 4 wheelsets is about $10.  Yes,
$35 and you still have the "old school" engine.  But then, you won't give up the weight of the old school
F units, and if you've already done weathering on the truck frames or other tweaks, you won't
lose any of that effort.

[peteski]

Randy, if noise, wheel wear and motor wear are the 3 issues, maybe it would actually be easier
to change out the motors and wheelsets, and then try the Bearden bearing block removal.

After all, Kato motors can be had for around $20-$25, and a set of 4 wheelsets is about $10.  Yes,
$35 and you still have the "old school" engine.  But then, you won't give up the weight of the old school
F units, and if you've already done weathering on the truck frames or other tweaks, you won't
lose any of that effort.

I agree with Max - wheelsets can be changed and those are inexpensive.

As far as the motor goes, the original (MT-5?) Kato motor had a slightly different construction from the contemporary Kato motors but performance-wise I don't think there are any differences. Both are straight-wound 5-pole motors.  Brushes are replaceable and again, inexpensive ($2.50/pair).

Kato brushes

[mmagliaro]

Ah yes, the GM-5 motor.  Actually, I thought the newer Kato motors were skew wound.  No?
But you could probably get any Kato or Atlas motor to fit if you want to.  They are not that different.

Randy, I may have missed this, but have you removed the brushes and cleaned out the commutator slots?
Knowing you, I bet you have, but I had to ask.
That could be the only thing keeping your one "bum" unit from needing a nudge to get it started.  That's a notorious
symptom.

[peteski]

Ah yes, the GM-5 motor.  Actually, I thought the newer Kato motors were skew wound.  No?
But you could probably get any Kato or Atlas motor to fit if you want to.  They are not that different.

All the standard size open frame Kato motors are straight-wound. The only skew-wound Kato motors I know of are the smaller motors used in NW2 and GS-4 locos (basically the same motor in moth models). And those are 3-pole (Victor would do a face-palm here).

[mplsjct]

Since you’re looking for the newest mechanism, the idea of looking for units with the Kato knuckle couplers is actually a good plan, also, the newer mechanism is lighter than the original, if you have a chance to pick it up prior to purchasing, you will notice the difference in weight.

In the event you need parts for the original and revised non-dcc mech, yard sale trains carries some of the discontinued parts
http://yardsaletrains.com/products.php?cat=77

[Mark5]

The only skew-wound Kato motors I know of are the smaller motors used in NW2 and GS-4 locos (basically the same motor in moth models). And those are 3-pole (Victor would do a face-palm here).

Me too 

Hopefully Kato will not use a 3 pole motor again.

Mark

[NorsemanJack]

There were three versions of the Kato F unit mechanism.  If you look at the bottom and it doesn't have a split frame, you should have the latest version.  If it has a split frame, and you can see the gold colored metal pickups that the pointed axles rest in, you have the second generation (low friction, but not yet "shock absorber").  Neither one and you have the first.  It I were in your situation, I wouldn't mess with anything but the latest mechanism.