How far does a real grabiron stand off a typical body?

[mmagliaro]

I realized as I was starting to make a few grabirons to put on a dome on my steam engine project, that I really don't know how far away from the body these things actually stand.  Looking at a ruler and my hand, it seems like 4" would be about right.  That would be enough room to comfortably get my hand in there, although with big work gloves, it would still be a bit awkward.

Any first-hand knowledge out there?

[RockGp40]

The number I want to say is 2 inches, enough for a gloved hand. Could be 2.5 though.

[RockGp40]

Here's a picture of a POTX covered hopper that was on line recently. We made the customer make a repair after they pushed the car via the grab iron over their pit causing a safety defect [ Guests cannot view attachments ] . They used a piece of chain to pull on it causing the little dimple in the middle.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Please tell me it has a roping eye just out of view to the right...

Seriously, people are DUMB.

[RockGp40]

 It does. But this particular customer doesn't have a winch. They push two covered hoppers at a time using a wheeled loader and the hand brake to spot cars after we spot the first pocket.

[CNR5529]

I realized as I was starting to make a few grabirons to put on a dome on my steam engine project, that I really don't know how far away from the body these things actually stand.  Looking at a ruler and my hand, it seems like 4" would be about right.  That would be enough room to comfortably get my hand in there, although with big work gloves, it would still be a bit awkward.

Any first-hand knowledge out there?

49 CFR 231 has all the regulations for safety appliances (grab irons) in the US. You can refer to this for information on grab irons for all sorts of vehicles:
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=f90d23975fd3627758e24dd594e7f8de&mc=true&node=pt49.4.231&rgn=div5

Based on this, I would be tempted to treat the horizontal grabs on the dome the same way as the end hand holds on a steam engine in switching service, 49 CFR 213.16 (c) (2). Minimum clearance, 4 inches, except at coupler casting or braces when minimum clearance shall be 2 inches

Hope this helps!

[u18b]

Good rule of thumb....

If an N scale man can get his N scale HEAD between the grab and the wall/car body.....

Then it sticks out TOO FAR!

 

[PGE_Modeller]

49 CFR 231 has all the regulations for safety appliances (grab irons) in the US. You can refer to this for information on grab irons for all sorts of vehicles:
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=f90d23975fd3627758e24dd594e7f8de&mc=true&node=pt49.4.231&rgn=div5

Based on this, I would be tempted to treat the horizontal grabs on the dome the same way as the end hand holds on a steam engine in switching service, 49 CFR 213.16 (c) (2). Minimum clearance, 4 inches, except at coupler casting or braces when minimum clearance shall be 2 inches

Hope this helps!

The 1947 Locomotive Cyclopedia, Safety Appliances (pp. 907 -910), quotes the same 4" minimum clearance as above, but only for the pilot or rear tender beam handrail on steam  locomotives used in switching service.  All other steam locomotive  handrails (Road or Switching Service) have a minimum clearance of 2" with 2.5" being preferable.

Cheers,

[mmagliaro]

49 CFR 231 has all the regulations for safety appliances (grab irons) in the US. You can refer to this for information on grab irons for all sorts of vehicles:
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=f90d23975fd3627758e24dd594e7f8de&mc=true&node=pt49.4.231&rgn=div5

Based on this, I would be tempted to treat the horizontal grabs on the dome the same way as the end hand holds on a steam engine in switching service, 49 CFR 213.16 (c) (2). Minimum clearance, 4 inches, except at coupler casting or braces when minimum clearance shall be 2 inches

Hope this helps!

Thank you!  It certainly does help.  Actual data!  This is great. Yes, a clearance of anywhere from 2.5 to 4" would be right depending on how one compares the dome grabs to other ones.

[nkalanaga]

I read the page.  Didn't realize that they had coupler height standards for 36" and 24" railroads.  I always thought they set their own coupler heights, especially those that don't interchange with anyone else.

[narrowminded]

I read the page.  Didn't realize that they had coupler height standards for 36" and 24" railroads.  I always thought they set their own coupler heights, especially those that don't interchange with anyone else.

I saw that too.  I've noted it and was preparing to select one for my mine loco as I know they weren't standard height and couldn't be made as such with the low end heights on those locos.  As it is, I may choose the 24" narrow gauge height range of 14.5" to 17.5" with link and pin as my standard.  I also have to check my notes but my memory is telling me I measured 11.5" on an actual mine loco and car's draw bar.  But 14.5" to 17.5" sounds good and looks to be about right.  I will still make available an adapter for folks who want to use cars with standard Z coupler heights but they will look a tad silly.

[nkalanaga]

I don't think narrow gauge coupler heights were legally standardized through the first half of the 20th century, and I'm fairly sure mine locos still aren't covered by these rules.  These are for common-carrier railroads, or non-CCs regulated as railroads, not "railroads" integral to the operations of a particular industrial site.

Most western 36" lines seem to have used 26 inches, probably because they either interchanged with the D&RG(W), or bought used equipment from them.  I suspect that's where that legal standard came from.  Some eastern 36" lines used 24 inches, often with 24 inch wheels.

Interestingly, both standard and D&RG(W)'s 36" coupler heights put the center of the drawbar at the top of the wheel tread.  The D&RG used 26" inch wheels, while standard gauge used 33" and 36", with the average drawbar height 34.5".  Was that a coincidence, or is a there a good mechanical reason for it? 

[peteski]

Next question would be how thick are those typical grab irons?

[nkalanaga]

Narrowminded:  Your mine loco is safe, see section (b)(1) and possibly (b)(3):

"§231.0   Applicability and penalties.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, this part applies to all standard gage railroads.

(b) This part does not apply to:

(1) A railroad that operates only on track inside an installation which is not part of the general railroad system of transportation; or

(2) Rapid transit operations in an urban area that are not connected with the general railroad system of transportation.

(3) Freight and other non-passenger trains of four-wheel coal cars.

(4) Freight and other non-passenger trains of eight-wheel standard logging cars if the height of each car from the top of the rail to the center of the coupling is not more than 25 inches.

(5) A locomotive used in hauling a train referred to in paragraph (b)(4) of this section when the locomotive and cars of the train are used only to transport logs.

Peteski:

§231.1   Box and other house cars built or placed in service before October 1, 1966.
(h) Side handholds—(1) Number. Four. (Tread of side ladder is a side handhold.)

(2) Dimensions. Minimum diameter, five-eighths of an inch, wrought iron or steel. Minimum clear length, 16 inches, preferably 24 inches. Minimum clearance, 2, preferably 2 1⁄2 , inches.

(3) Location.

(i) Horizontal, one near each end on each side of car. Side handholds shall be not less than 24 nor more than 30 inches above center line of coupler, except as provided above, where tread of ladder is a handhold. Clearance of outer end of handhold shall be not more than 8 inches from end of car.

(ii) Carriers are not required to change the location of handholds, on cars in service July 1, 1911, except end handholds under end sills, where the appliances are within 3 inches of the required location, except that when cars undergo regular repairs they must then be made to comply with the standards prescribed.

(4) Manner of application. Side handholds shall be securely fastened with not less than 1⁄2 -inch bolts with nuts outside (when possible) and riveted over, or with not less than 1⁄2 -inch rivets.

[peteski]

Peteski:

§231.1   Box and other house cars built or placed in service before October 1, 1966.
(h) Side handholds—(1) Number. Four. (Tread of side ladder is a side handhold.)

(2) Dimensions. Minimum diameter, five-eighths of an inch, wrought iron or steel. Minimum clear length, 16 inches, preferably 24 inches. Minimum clearance, 2, preferably 2 1⁄2 , inches.

That would be 0.004" diameter in N scale. Not realistically obtainable, especially with a coat of paint. The bare wire would have to be around 0.002" diameter.  That is too fragile for normal handling.