What years did MTL cars come with "pizza cutters"?

[C855B]

I'm trying to get a ballpark of when MTL cars were originally sold with the deep flanges, and also the period where they came with shallow flanges installed but the optional deep-flange wheelsets were included in the jewel case.

Seems an odd question, but as the GC&W is being constructed, it's becoming apparent that there will be spots on the layout that don't handle the deep flanges well. One in particular so far is a 90° quad diamond on the mainline, and anywhere there is Code 40, particularly in yards and some sidings. For visiting operators, the Special Instructions will outline where their train(s) will be required to operate at restricted speed. So I'd like to convey (in the instructions) the idea that if their MTL rolling stock is older than X but made after Y, they may want to check for pizza cutters.

There are guys in my club who love Code 80 and the deep flanges, and I have to defend the MRR against them should they want to bring their stuff. For that matter, knowing I replace mine they have solicited my giving them the growing stash of removed pizza cutters. No, I'm not going to be an enabler; the cycle of wheel abuse must be broken.  

[Mark5]

You can probably find the answers by searching Railwire (I am too lazy to do this at the moment).

From recollection, sometime in the early part of the first decade of this century, MTL started putting the low pros in the box with the pizza wheels. Then, a year or so later, they backpedaled and went back to just pizza cutters. Finally, when the "standard" flange wheelsets became available, new releases just came with the "standard" flange wheelsets and the pizza cutters rode off into the sunset ...

Mark

[Missaberoad]

You can probably find the answers by searching Railwire (I am too lazy to do this at the moment).

From recollection, sometime in the early part of the first decade of this century, MTL started putting the low pros in the box with the pizza wheels. Then, a year or so later, they backpedaled and went back to just pizza cutters. Finally, when the "standard" flange wheelsets became available, new releases just came with the "standard" flange wheelsets and the pizza cutters rode off into the sunset ...

Mark

At some point in there cars came exclusively with low pro wheels (I think before they gave both sets iirc)

perhaps Joe @Shipsure can help with the approx dates...

[C855B]

I'm also wondering when it started in the first place. I will look at my stuff again, but I'm moderately certain that Kadee "blue label" cars had something a little less radical that was OK with smaller rail sizes, and the pizza cutters appeared maybe in the late '80s.

[peteski]

I seem to recall that an issue of the N Scale Collector Magazine (several years back) had an article devoted to this subject. But I don't remember which issue. 

[Mark5]

I'm also wondering when it started in the first place. I will look at my stuff again, but I'm moderately certain that Kadee "blue label" cars had something a little less radical that was OK with smaller rail sizes, and the pizza cutters appeared maybe in the late '80s.

Hmm, I bought the first Kadee cars back in '72 and off and on afterwards, and they were always "pizza cutters" in the 20th century, at least for the releases that I bought. The cars initially came with non-magnetic metal wheels with the ribbed backs - pizza cutters supreme!

I still have plenty in my parts box.

Mark

[bbussey]

I'm also wondering when it started in the first place. I will look at my stuff again, but I'm moderately certain that Kadee "blue label" cars had something a little less radical that was OK with smaller rail sizes, and the pizza cutters appeared maybe in the late '80s.

No.  Always large-flanged wheels.  The ribbed-back wheels had a more prototypical flange edge, but they still were large.  When Kadee abandoned the ribbed-back wheels and introduced their first generation low-profile wheels, the flange edge on both diameters remained prototypical.  When Micro-Trains retooled the wheels, the flanges received a sharp edge and the "pizza cutter" nickname due to the resemblance of the same.  But the flange diameter of the hi-profile wheels did not change over the last half-century.  The standard wheel came to market because the consumer demand kept increasing for a wheel that ran on Atlas code 55 and other rail manufactured to NMRA-specs.

[gbcaboose]

I'll add this to what Brian posted:  "The molding for the rib-backed wheels broke in July 1987 and was never fixed. Micro-Trains went to the current version of its wheels, called "smooth backed" to distinguish them from the "rib backed" predecessors. However, as there was a large supply of rib-backed wheels still available at the factory, a number of MTL cars issued from September 1987 still may have come with rib-backed wheels. Or they may have come with smooth-backed wheels. No one knows exactly when the last rib-backed wheel was used on a factory-issued MTL car, but I think it's a safe bet to say that they were gone by the time the Kadee/Micro-Trains split occurred in 1990. "   From the the web.

I believe when they retooled after the mold broke, they were still "pizza cutters" but with a smooth back. And as posted earlier, they retooled again to a low profile wheel. I've heard but can't confirm that they retooled after the "lo-pros" to an intermediate flange (which is what they're sold with today) due to the original lo-pros not tracking well on mediocre laid track. During the time MTL included an extra set of wheels, the were including the lo-pros and the intermediates.

But as for the original question, I don't have specific dates. 


Mike

[Mark5]

On the low profile wheels, there were too different versions, with the latter version having much "sharper" flanges than the 1st version.

I bought a bunch of the low profile wheelsets when they first came out (late 70s /early 1980s??? - I cant remember). I was shocked at how different the newer low pros were when I first saw them this century (included loose with releases for a while).

Mark

[C855B]

Good enough, then. Tanks!   Much more to it than I thought. Instead of trying to parse it, then, maybe just a blanket prohibition on old MTL/Kadee wheelsets would suffice. I'll be sure to issue white U-1 dots to my buds who insist on the old wheels.

[peteski]

Just to add to the conversation, the wheels currently used are not low-profile or or pizza-cutters -  they are "medium-profile" wheels. MT introduced those to stop their practice of using pizza-cutters in their models along with extra set of low-profiles in the box.  AFAIK, this double-wheel-set packaging was done in a response to the modeler's outcry about incompatibility of MT models with the newly-released Atlas C55 track while also trying to keep the MT collector purists with pizza-cutter wheels (which they wanted). The current wheels have flanges which have depth in between the low-profiles and pizza-cutters.

[Missaberoad]

Just to add to the conversation, the wheels currently used are not low-profile or or pizza-cutters -  they are "medium-profile" wheels. MT introduced those to stop their practice of using pizza-cutters in their models along with extra set of low-profiles in the box.  AFAIK, this double-wheel-set packaging was done in a response to the modeler's outcry about incompatibility of MT models with the newly-released Atlas C55 track while also trying to keep the MT collector purists with pizza-cutter wheels (which they wanted). The current wheels have flanges which have depth in between the low-profiles and pizza-cutters.

Not sure about the collector market, but alot of people in my N trak club at the time hated the low pros because of their less forgiving nature on rough track.
I think the code 80 roundy round crowd had alot to do with the decision aswell...

[peteski]

Not sure about the collector market, but alot of people in my N trak club at the time hated the low pros because of their less forgiving nature on rough track.
I think the code 80 roundy round crowd had alot to do with the decision aswell...

Either way, the current medium-flange wheel was a compromise (and a cost-cutting measure). 

[Missaberoad]

Either way, the current medium-flange wheel was a compromise (and a cost-cutting measure). 

Yes it was and is actually closer to the NMRA RP25 wheel then either of its predecessors...

I did like the low pros, but with the flood of metal semi-scale wheels in the last several years don't miss them at all...

[Santa Fe Guy]

Mike.
As long as I can recall M/T wheels have always had deep flanges.  I got rid of all my pizza cutters purchased from the mid 80's on when I built my SFRSD. using ME Code 55 track and their #6 turnouts. I moved across to the M/T medium profile as too many of my friends to stop the Pizza Cutters from causing derailments. The deep sharp flanges caused no end of problems during operating sessions. Once all cars were retrofitted with the M/T medium flanged wheels most of my problems disappeared.
Rod.