Locomotives with Molded-In Details or Pre-Drilled to Add Details?

[daniel_leavitt2000]

CF7 now that is an engine I could use - Mass Central for me please.

I think there were several frame variations over just open and boxed. Didn't they just try to box the ends over the trucks at first, then box the whole thing?

Thinking about this engine, it would be a perfect candidate for Scale Trains. The DB hatch could be separate to cover 2 and 4 stack configurations. Two cabs would cover the majority of prototypes, though 4 would be better and cover all window configurations. Finally, ST could use just a single walkway, but add etched plates to simulate the boxed frame.

Didn't the guys at Scale Trains work on the Athearn CF7?

[mu26aeh]

@Ed Kapuscinski  and myself would probably be in for at least 2 CF7's each for our respective layouts.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2963834
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=78978
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=660471

[sundowner]

JMHO, there is nothing realistic or prototypical about molded-on parts, so I believe that FVM deserves kudos for going on principle in that regard.  I can't recall ever hearing of anyone not buying the FVM models because they look "naked" without molded-on parts. 

Ed

I have not bough any FVM models because they are naked. Like I said earlier on this thread, I don't have the time, motor skills or patience to install those little parts.

[davefoxx]

A I mentioned previously I'm not sure I understand the last part of that claim.   Why think of a model as 'naked', if it does not have parts that most folks would not see under normal use?

Seems to me that this is the kind of perception that has arisen over time from model manufacturers trying to promote their products as "highly detailed" -- even tho historically that meant that the "details" actually had to be made oversized so that buyers would notice them.  The practice became entrenched, and so continues -- something of a self-fulfilling (or perhaps self-perpetuating) prophecy 

JMHO, there is nothing realistic or prototypical about molded-on parts, so I believe that FVM deserves kudos for going on principle in that regard.  I can't recall ever hearing of anyone not buying the FVM models because they look "naked" without molded-on parts. 

Ed

In all due respect, Ed, you've got to think objectively rather than from your excellent craftsman point of view.  For those that want freestanding details, they have the Rivet Counter Series model available.  For those that don't want to deal with installing fiddly little parts (or don't care or want fragile pieces and parts onboard), it would be nice if the option for the Operator's Series did not require installing parts to avoid being stuck with a naked model.  Otherwise, all you're getting is factory-installed parts versus modeler-installed parts, which, in the end, is practically the same result once installed.  Some folks don't want that fragility of their models.  As I pointed out upstream, are you really going to save that much money to make it worth your while to install the parts yourself?

I don't consider myself a model railroader neophyte (others may disagree), but I once owned a FVM GP60M and never got around to installing the details before I sold it.  Why?  Because I was afraid of screwing it up.  However, it was painfully obvious to me that those parts were missing when I ran that locomotive.  At this point in my experience with the hobby, I'm okay with Atlas-quality molded-on parts, because we don't all have the time or the skill to do what you do with your beautiful models.  If we want more detail, we would have the option of buying the Rivet Counter Series.  Otherwise, molded-on detail would suit many folks just fine.

I believe that it's important to note that doing freestanding details on the Rivet Counter Series and molded-on details on the Operator's Series satisfies the most customers.  That's what ScaleTrains is concerned with.

DFF

[coosvalley]

I believe that it's important to note that doing freestanding details on the Rivet Counter Series and molded-on details on the Operator's Series satisfies the most customers.
DFF

The poll seems to disagree with you on this point..

[davefoxx]

The poll seems to disagree with you on this point..

The poll is a limited pool of TRW members, so probably not that accurate.

DFF

[coosvalley]

So, the poll is not accurate,but your assumption is?  ..Not trying to be a jerk here, that just doesn't add up to me..

FWIW, the facebook poll seems to lean in the same direction..

[davefoxx]

So, the poll is not accurate,but your assumption is?  ..Not trying to be a jerk here, that just doesn't add up to me..

FWIW, the facebook poll seems to lean in the same direction..

What assumption are you referring to?  Again, you must try to think objectively.  Not all model railroaders are on Facebook and most certainly only a very small percentage of modelers are on TRW.  There's probably only a few hundred active members here, and, at the time of this post, only 81 have voted on the poll.  That's hardly a fair sampling of the general population of model railroaders.  Of course, one would expect TRW to lean heavily towards the superdetailed side of the equation.  That said, ScaleTrains did ask here, so, apparently, they care for our opinion.  We'll just have to see what they decide to do.

DFF

[Missaberoad]

The poll is a limited pool of TRW members, so probably not that accurate.
DFF

On the Facebook thread there is also an overwhelming response for separately applied details.
https://www.facebook.com/scaletrains/posts/1144044642284711

Not counting requests for factory applied (ie: Rivet counter version) I count 31 requests for either pre-drilled or dimpled vs. 9 requests for molded.
While I admit that less then a couple hundred people between here and there is most definitely a limited sample size. I see no evidence to come to the conclusion that molded detail satisfies the most customers.

Many people who voted for separately applied on the "Operator" version state that they want to apply their own...

[coosvalley]

I believe that ....... satisfies the most customers.

This is the assumption I was referring to...

Your opinion is as valid as mine . I'm only trying to speak for myself though, not "most" customers, which seems......presumptive?... Which is why I chose that word...

[davefoxx]

This is the assumption I was referring to...

That's not an assumption; that's my opinion.   

Your opinion is as valid as mine . I'm only trying to speak for myself though, not "most" customers, which seems......presumptive?... Which is why I chose that word...

Presumptive?  You act like objectivity is a bad thing.  ScaleTrains is obviously trying to find its market for the most sales.  That equates to what satisfies the largest portion of the model railroader population.

Oh, and as for the Facebook votes, I stand behind my previous statement that not all model railroaders are on Facebook.  I am, but I don't generally visit manufacturers' sites there, so I have certainly not added any input there.  Others, like @peteski (sorry to drag you into this), are not even on Facebook.

DFF

[davefoxx]

On the Facebook thread there is also an overwhelming response for separately applied details.
https://www.facebook.com/scaletrains/posts/1144044642284711

Not counting requests for factory applied (ie: Rivet counter version) I count 31 requests for either pre-drilled or dimpled vs. 9 requests for molded.
While I admit that less then a couple hundred people between here and there is most definitely a limited sample size. I see no evidence to come to the conclusion that molded detail satisfies the most customers.

Many people who voted for separately applied on the "Operator" version state that they want to apply their own...

I didn't say molded-on satisfies the most customers.  I said that I believe that freestanding details on the Rivet Counter Series and molded-on details on the Operator's Series would satisfy the most customers.  That is, if you want freestanding details or molded-on details, it's available to you.  Just buy from the series that satisfies your needs.  If both series are freestanding details, then what's the difference in the end result other than saving a few bucks to install it yourself?  Why should those who don't want freestanding details be left with a naked locomotive?

DFF

[coosvalley]

That's not an assumption; that's my opinion.   

Presumptive?  You act like objectivity is a bad thing.  ScaleTrains is obviously trying to find its market for the most sales.  That equates to what satisfies the largest portion of the model railroader population.

Oh, and as for the Facebook votes, I stand behind my previous statement that not all model railroaders are on Facebook.  I am, but I don't generally visit manufacturers' sites there, so I have certainly not added any input there.  Others, like @peteski (sorry to drag you into this), are not even on Facebook.

DFF

Do you know of anywhere else they are conducting such a poll?...The numbers seem to be in favor of separately applied details here and facebook, so that's what we have to go by!....I realize that does not represent every N scaler in the world, but neither do either of us, that's where the numbers come into play.. Unfortunately, they don't seem to agree with what you're saying!..I am sorry, we all like to see our side win!

[Missaberoad]

I didn't say molded-on satisfies the most customers.  I said that freestanding details on the Rivet Counter Series and molded-on details on the Operator's Series would satisfy the most customers.  That is, if you want freestanding details or molded-on details, it's available to you.  Just buy from the series that satisfies your needs.  If both series are freestanding details, then what's the difference in the end result other than saving a few bucks to install it yourself?  Why should those who don't want freestanding details be left with a naked locomotive?

DFF

I'm just making an observation and sharing my opinion based on the data we have...

You have made a passionate argument and we simply disagree. I see your point and to take it to the logical extreme doing 3 versions would satisfy the most modelers. 
Personally I think N scale needs to progress beyond molded on detail as a whole, and any product that works towards that goal is a good thing. This is my opinion and at least some people agree with me.

You and I have no way of knowing what the average N scale modeler's opinion is beyond our respective circle of friends and online communities. so lacking any other data these polls do give a window into what people are thinking (taken with a grain of salt of course).

I respect your opinion and appreciate that you respect that I have a different view...

at the end of the day It doesn't really matter trains are fun, naked or not... 

[coosvalley]

I don't have the motor skills  to install those little parts.

To me, this is the best argument against user applied details. I do not look forward to the day when this is true for myself, and I do feel for those in such a situation...