Running N scale DC trains with a tablet using BlueRail

[Passenger55]

Here is a video of an easy way to run conventional DC layouts with an iOS or Android device using a BlueRail board:

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This video is N scale. There is another video that shows running z scale.

[mighalpern]

thats really neat.  I
 have operated on that layout several times and its always fun.
 question is : can you control only one loco at a time.  Dave uses blocks so he can run several locos at one time.
I like it.  i know dave has not gone postal ( DCC) yet but this gets him closer

[Passenger55]

This isn't available yet in N scale to control individual locos. The current plugin boards for individual locos only fit HO and larger. But its a pretty affordable way to run an N or Z DC train remotely until they do get small enough.

[craigolio1]

That's pretty cool. I live the simplicity of the control layout.


Craig

[jagged ben]

I wonder if this could be the solution to our clubs dying DC radio controlled throttles.  The 1.2 amp limit seems a bit low for an N scale consist, though.

[Passenger55]

This board has a curve of amperage support, starting at 4-8 amps for the first second, down to 2 amps for 15 seconds, and down to 1.2 amps after 1 minute continuous, before the built-in protection (ptc fuse) shuts the board off to protect itself.

[jagged ben]

This board has a curve of amperage support, starting at 4-8 amps for the first second, down to 2 amps for 15 seconds, and down to 1.2 amps after 1 minute continuous, before the built-in protection (ptc fuse) shuts the board off to protect itself.

I saw that.  I'm not sure a slow freight with six engines going up our continuous 2.5 percent grade at the club with a full train isn't going to pull 1.2amps for over a full minute.  It may or may not, but it strikes me as cutting it a little close.  One would like to run trains without worrying about it. 

[peteski]

So basically you use a type of a decoder as a DC throttle.  Same thing can be done with a DCC decoder but you need additional hardware (and JMRI) to get it to work with WiFi and handheld devices.

That is pretty clever, but the train still runs under DC: no constant lighting (in the locos or passenger cars) or light effects, and no sound.  I guess it is a very basic setup.  But going from my experience, once you move to DCC, it is hard to turn back.  The ease of operation and setting up consists, not worrying about blocks or polarity makes DCC an easy choice.  Yes, it also comes with it's share of headaches, but many old-fashioned DC layouts I operate have their share of headaches too.

Still, this might be a good choice for someone who just needs a really basic WiFi-controlled layout.

[u18b]

I like it.

So the appeal is.... that it is still plain old analog DC (which a lot of people still use).
But now you get a fast and easy wireless walk around throttle.

By the way... I still use DC.
Well, that is I have a dual mode layout that can go either way depending on what I'm doing/running at the time.

[Passenger55]

I saw that.  I'm not sure a slow freight with six engines going up our continuous 2.5 percent grade at the club with a full train isn't going to pull 1.2amps for over a full minute.  It may or may not, but it strikes me as cutting it a little close.  One would like to run trains without worrying about it.

I believe these PTC fuses will reset to protect the board, so you could safely experiment a little till you find the sweet spot that your train can pull x number of cars up a grade. In the User Showcase on the BlueRail site there are some stats of an O scale train using this board to pull 8-9 pounds of cars on a grade - I'm not sure what that corresponds to with N trains. You could always wait for the higher amperage board to come out. Towards the end of this year there are bluetooth modules scheduled to release with dimensions that could possibly fit an N loco. I'm not sure how long it will be till those are integrated into train control boards.

Here is a link to an article describing how to wire this sort of setup (to power a layout): http://bluerailtrains.com/2016/07/14/using-a-bluerail-board-to-run-dc-trains-and-lights-on-a-conventional-train-set/

You can also control 4 lighting elements or accessories on the layout.

[jagged ben]

So basically you use a type of a decoder as a DC throttle.  Same thing can be done with a DCC decoder but you need additional hardware (and JMRI) to get it to work with WiFi and handheld devices. 

One concern about using a DCC decoder as a DC power pack is overcurrent protection.  Another is if a DC loco runs into a DCC block accidentally (yes, planning for this is required, not negotiable*), then you essentially have a motor lead shorting to the rail which is what they tell you will fry your decoder.

*To explain, we have a common-rail layout with several DC cabs and a DCC system.   (It was required to use Digitrax boosters with Loconet optically isolated, a not well known but available option).  So one can dispatch multiple DC trains along with DCC.   

What's attractive about the Bluerail is that each 'cab' could be powered by a separate isolated power source, so no worry about ground fault or short circuit.  And the overcurrent documentation is reassuring.    I'm imagine we could cobble together overcurrent and isolation for a DCC decoder, but I for one don't have the time, and in a club environment it's nice to provide a known product for whoever else might be coming along to maintain it later.

That is pretty clever, but the train still runs under DC: no constant lighting (in the locos or passenger cars) or light effects, and no sound.  I guess it is a very basic setup.  But going from my experience, once you move to DCC, it is hard to turn back.   

True, but the whole club does not convert at once, and we want to be open to everyone.   The fact that our DC cabs tend not to all be reliably working at one time has become a lot less of a problem over the last decade as a bunch of members have converted to DCC.   But we'd still like to support DC for the foreseeable future.

The ease of ... setting up consists,

Of all the things that you mentioned, setting up consists is the one thing that is not easier with DCC.   

Still, this might be a good choice for someone who just needs a really basic WiFi-controlled layout.

Bluetooth not Wifi.   

... You could always wait for the higher amperage board to come out. Towards the end of this year there are bluetooth modules scheduled to release with dimensions that could possibly fit an N loco. I'm not sure how long it will be till those are integrated into train control boards.
...

The higher amperage board would probably be worth waiting for, do you have a link for that?

Not really interested in putting boards inside N scale locos, DCC works well enough for that.

[peteski]

One concern about using a DCC decoder as a DC power pack is overcurrent protection.  Another is if a DC loco runs into a DCC block accidentally (yes, planning for this is required, not negotiable*), then you essentially have a motor lead shorting to the rail which is what they tell you will fry your decoder.

*To explain, we have a common-rail layout with several DC cabs and a DCC system.   (It was required to use Digitrax boosters with Loconet optically isolated, a not well known but available option).  So one can dispatch multiple DC trains along with DCC.   

What's attractive about the Bluerail is that each 'cab' could be powered by a separate isolated power source, so no worry about ground fault or short circuit.  And the overcurrent documentation is reassuring.    I'm imagine we could cobble together overcurrent and isolation for a DCC decoder, but I for one don't have the time, and in a club environment it's nice to provide a known product for whoever else might be coming along to maintain it later.

True, but the whole club does not convert at once, and we want to be open to everyone.   The fact that our DC cabs tend not to all be reliably working at one time has become a lot less of a problem over the last decade as a bunch of members have converted to DCC.   But we'd still like to support DC for the foreseeable future.

Of all the things that you mentioned, setting up consists is the one thing that is not easier with DCC.   

Bluetooth not Wifi.   

Yeah, Bluetooth - that was a a slip-up on my part. The bottom line is that it is a type of wireless radio (not IR) control. 

Don't some DCC decoders offer motor output overload protection?

As far as worrying about polarity and shorts I cannot envision this being used for anything but small roundy-round layout.  So, no multiple blocks or throttles.

I don't know about you, but I have operated on many DC-block control and DCC ones and I can comfortably state (at least for me) that the convenience of DCC (no worries about block polarity or throttle/block assignment, easily settign up to run multiple locos - even with helper locos, plus the excellent lighting effects) beats the DC-block control by a huge margin. Even if there is some pain to go through and a learning curve involved. DCC sure has its gremlins but overall, it is so much more operating-session-friendly.   There are plenty of things (like adjacent opposite-polarity blocks or losing control of your train by crossing over to someone else's block) which can and will go wrong on DC-controlled layouts.  So is the constant need to worry about the settings which need to be done in the next block.  That's how I see this DC vs. DCC debate. Or in this example N scale BlueRail vs. DCC debate.

[jagged ben]

Yeah, Bluetooth - that was a a slip-up on my part. The bottom line is that it is a type of wireless radio (not IR) control. 

Don't some DCC decoders offer motor output overload protection?

As far as worrying about polarity and shorts I cannot envision this being used for anything but small roundy-round layout.  So, no multiple blocks or throttles.

I don't know about you, but I have operated on many DC-block control and DCC ones and I can comfortably state (at least for me) that the convenience of DCC (no worries about block polarity or throttle/block assignment, easily settign up to run multiple locos - even with helper locos, plus the excellent lighting effects) beats the DC-block control by a huge margin. Even if there is some pain to go through and a learning curve involved. DCC sure has its gremlins but overall, it is so much more operating-session-friendly.   There are plenty of things (like adjacent opposite-polarity blocks or losing control of your train by crossing over to someone else's block) which can and will go wrong on DC-controlled layouts.  So is the constant need to worry about the settings which need to be done in the next block.  That's how I see this DC vs. DCC debate. Or in this example N scale BlueRail vs. DCC debate.

Dude, you're missing my point.  You don't need to sell me on the benefits of DCC.  But we have a club layout and we want to continue to support DC for the foreseeable future because not all our members are going to convert, or not at once.   I personally am about half way through converting my fleet and want to run my DC locos in the meantime.  The whole layout has been built to support both DC and DCC for a long time, we're not forced to make a choice or expend  any real effort there.  The only thing is that our old garage-door technology DC throttles could stand to be replaced, and this could potentially be the replacement.

I can envision Bluerail being used for more than a roundy-roundy layout.  That's my point.

[peteski]

Dude, you're missing my point.  You don't need to sell me on the benefits of DCC.  But we have a club layout and we want to continue to support DC for the foreseeable future because not all our members are going to convert, or not at once.   I personally am about half way through converting my fleet and want to run my DC locos in the meantime.  The whole layout has been built to support both DC and DCC for a long time, we're not forced to make a choice or expend  any real effort there.  The only thing is that our old garage-door technology DC throttles could stand to be replaced, and this could potentially be the replacement.

I can envision Bluerail being used for more than a roundy-roundy layout.  That's my point.

I do see your point.

So you would replace the current DC throttles on that layout with these decoder-throttle units.  You still have to make sure to properly assign the appropriate blocks to the appropriate throttles or to DCC, as you have always done.  And we both know that accidents and mistakes can and will happen and a train overrunning a block assigned to a different throttle (either DC or the DCC signal) will cause shorts (or some bad interaction) between those adjacent blocks. Even if each BlueRail has a separate power supply, the short could cause damage to those decoder/throttle units (even if they have a PTC breaker).  That is regardless of whether a common rail system is used or not. If each BlueRail throttle in the shorted out blocks is set to run in opposite direction they might get damaged (depending on how fast the breaker acts).  A short between a BlueRail throttle and a DCC block could also be damaging even if the throttle is set to zero speed.  But I guess if the Bluerail's output stage is as robust as the old fashioned DC throttle then there will not be any damage.

[jagged ben]

I'm not really seeing how running into the wrong block would damage the Bluerail board, if it has adequate short-circuit protection which it seems it does.  There's no damaging return path current I can see, as long as each blue-rail is connected to separate power supply.   And yes, as long as the Bluerail OCP is as robust as any other DC throttle then it should be as safe as what we have now.  (I'm curious what the reset time is on the BlueRail board.)

I suppose maybe the same could be said of DCC decoders each connected to their own booster, but even so I'm less convinced of that.  Seems a lot more expensive, too, to pay for a DCC booster and not just a DC wall-wart. 

I don't know much about overcurrent protection on DCC decoder motor control outputs.   One thing I do know is that trying to run a DCC loco in analog mode with a DCC decoder causes problems, but that is probably a feature we could stand to do without.