Crazy Idea time! N scale Caboose FPV?

[SandyEggoJake]

The topic is crazy idea time yes? 

I've been looking at options on low cost DIY Rx/Tx , as well as the space requirements for the Tx and antenna... and it dawned on me.   Might it be feasible to do away with the wireless Tx/Rx altogether and just pass the FPV signal back over the rails? (As I've already admitted, I've never done FPV on my trains.  For all I know, this might be the way Pete's and others Train FPV all work...)

Obviously, the frequency would need to be different than that used by the DCC, etc. My not so techie neighbor told me he has some off the shelf HDMI video security system that transmits High Def signal through his house over his powerlines.  Has the cameras hooked to an outlet, and then another gizmo pics up and filters the signal and provides it to his network.  He can use an app on his phone to look at his camera feed in real time. (see http://www.zdnet.com/article/video-surveillance-over-power-lines-yes-its-possible/)  The whole time he was talking, I was thinking of our 5C (cupola camera crummy car concept).

[eric220]

I'd be wary of pumping video over the rails. The old Lionel RailScope used that idea, and the results were horrible. I'm sure the filtering technology has improved, but with DCC, you'd also have the DCC signal creating noise in addition to the noise of flowing electricity. The camera that Peteski mentioned pointed into a periscope is probably the best bet. I've been thinking about this, and I can't come up with any other way to get the center of the camera up high enough.

Here's my install in a shark nose. Thanks again to Peteski for his help getting it up and running.

[peteski]

Might it be feasible to do away with the wireless Tx/Rx altogether and just pass the FPV signal back over the rails? (As I've already admitted, I've never done FPV on my trains.  For all I know, this might be the way Pete's and others Train FPV all work...)

Like Eric said, that method was used in the infancy of train cameras, back when the picture was black/white and the camera setup barely fit in a Lionel locomotive. I think that the main problem is the arcing of the wheels (they do arc even if we don.t see it).  That creates a broadband electic and electromagnetic noise which is hard to filter out.  Even the wireless camera I use is affected to a certain extent by that. Plus the square-pulse DCC signal creates even more noise.  But maybe if you got all fancy and used some spread-spectrum  system (if that if feasible to travel through rails) then maybe it would be a workable solution.



http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/lionel-railscope-opinions

[delamaize]

I made my decision, I'm going to try this, pending a few things, first is I need to find one of those periscope lenses that will fit the camera, or make my own. Second, I need to wait for the cameras to come back in stock. Third is still trying to find a decent priced Receiver.....

[nscaler711]

It'd be nice if you could wire up a camera from any modern day smart phone and throw it in the cab of a loco or w/e but you'd probably need a Arduino just to get it working...
Cause I've got the camera from a Nokia Lumia 1020... It records 1080p video... But its pretty big still, so a standard 8MP that shoots 720p would be just fine and it'd fit in a N scale loco...

[peteski]

Cause I've got the camera from a Nokia Lumia 1020... It records 1080p video... But its pretty big still, so a standard 8MP that shoots 720p would be just fine and it'd fit in a N scale loco...

I wonder why an 8Mp camera/image-sensor would not shoot HD video.  A resolution of an 8Mp still photo is roughly 3264x2448.  At least on my Nikon camera. That should accommodate HD video which is 1900x1080. But interfacing a phone camera to a video transmitter is another story.

[nscaler711]

720p is HD, its just the low end.
From what I have seen most 8MP shoot very close to 720p more so than 1080p.
Oh a side not the camera in the 1020 is a 36+5MP Camera (so I guess 41mp) and that shoots 1080p. Don't ask me why but that's just how cell phones are set up, or at least advertised I'm sure the 1020s camera can record at alot higher than 1080p without all the crap that's on the phone.
But 8MP seems to be the average in phones today... Maybe some are higher but some cheaper ones have 8MP or less and record at 720P.... Or less...

[delamaize]

Resesrch time!
I'm thinking this receiver:
http://www.rangevideo.com/58-ghz/995-8ghz-fpv-audiovideo-receiver-32-channels.html
With this Transmitter:
http://www.rangevideo.com/58-ghz/10-tx5200m-58ghz-200mw-5v-transmitter-module.html#/antenna_connector-wire_antenna/soldered-no_i_will_do_it_myself_
and this camera (if it ever gets back in stock.)
http://fpvhobby.com/83-1-gram-nano-camera.html
Or this camera(again if it's ever back in stock):
http://www.rangevideo.com/kx2-micro-camera/39-kx2-micro-cmos-camera.html
and one of those pariscope lenses mentioned earlier, and a modified cupola, and we might be in buisness!

Actually, I am updating this thread with this information because it's the easiest way to get links from my work computer to home computer. 

In addition, the transmitter says it takes 5 volts, I wonder if you could take a DCC decoder, and set the CV2, 5, and 6 to always give 5 volts, so as soon as you pulled up the address, it all would power on. Then you could have class lights, FRED, interior lights, etc.....but I'm just talking out my a$$ now. lol.....

[nscaler711]

Actually, I am updating this thread with this information because it's the easiest way to get links from my work computer to home computer. 

You mean besides emailing yourself the links?   
But this was probably easier to get the thoughts out of your head and giving yourself access to links you'd forget otherwise. So +1 for killing two birds with one stone! 

[peteski]

In addition, the transmitter says it takes 5 volts, I wonder if you could take a DCC decoder, and set the CV2, 5, and 6 to always give 5 volts, so as soon as you pulled up the address, it all would power on. Then you could have class lights, FRED, interior lights, etc.....but I'm just talking out my a$$ now. lol.....

Unfortunately, that is not how decoder's motor output works.  Decoders use PWM (pulse width modulation) to drive the motor (an inductive load).  They pulse the full track voltage (minus about 1 Volt) at all the speed steps. So from the motor's perspective the 5V average on the motor outputs is actually about a 50% duty cycle of the full voltage.  While this works for simple loads like motors or LEDs, you can't really use that as a source of regulated voltage for complex electronic devices like a transmitter or a video camera.  Those need a steady 5V DC power.  Before you say it, putting a large filter cap in the circuit will not work either.

The funny thing is that the camera setup I use has a most impressive battery-backed 5V power supply.  It would be perfect for your setup. But they do not sell it separately.  You could roll your own supply but it will only work from a track voltage >6V and be subjected to dropouts from bad wheel-to-track contact.

[nscaler711]

lookie!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tomix-Tomytec-Japan-Train-Track-RailWay-JNR-JR-N-Scale-5591-Camera-System-Rare-/141757806997?&_trksid=p2056016.m2516.l5255


and ouchie...

[delamaize]

This idea isn't dead, just on pause, having a hard time getting my hands on camera stuff.

Hey Pete, what system did you use for your locomotive cameras? I'm thinking the only way to get this done anytime soon is to buy something like you used, and try to remove the camera portion from the housing and go from there....

[SkipGear]

Camera, TX and RX are easy to come by. That is all anybody walks into the hobbyshop and asks for anymore. In my non-train time this summer I got into racing FPV quads. 5.8ghz  TX/RX combos can be had for around $50. Smaller stuff is a little more expensive but you can source cameras, TX and RX all seperately. A 25mw TX is all that you need. A 25mw TX on a micro quad has about 150' range. I have a 32 ch 5.8ghz RX that outputs to an RF video cable so I can hook it up to the TV. I have flown around the outside of the house while setting in the living room on a 200mw TX.

A simple micro system is available from Horizon, it's a camera with a 25mw TX built in that sells for around $100. You can even get cameras with a built in SD card slot that will record raw video.

[C855B]

Camera, TX and RX are easy to come by. That is all anybody walks into the hobbyshop and asks for anymore. In my non-train time this summer I got into racing FPV quads. 5.8ghz  TX/RX combos can be had for around $50. Smaller stuff is a little more expensive but you can source cameras, TX and RX all seperately. A 25mw TX is all that you need. A 25mw TX on a micro quad has about 150' range. I have a 32 ch 5.8ghz RX that outputs to an RF video cable so I can hook it up to the TV. I have flown around the outside of the house while setting in the living room on a 200mw TX.

A simple micro system is available from Horizon, it's a camera with a 25mw TX built in that sells for around $100. You can even get cameras with a built in SD card slot that will record raw video.

OK... since you brought it up... ... my requirements are both simple yet pushing the tech. I need 1080p, wireless live stream (i.e., FPV), in a size that will fit within NMRA clearances in N. Camera, transmitter and power supply can be separated to spread through the rolling stock if necessary.

So far I am hitting a brick wall with 1080p. Everybody wants to put the camera in a self-contained housing with buttons and a memory slot for on-helmet sports applications, the GoPro market. The extra size for the buttons, etc., means the form factor won't work for N. The Horizon micro system you mention (Fat Shark) conveniently omits the camera specs, but knowing video in general, I can extrapolate it is apparently a 320TVL camera. That's fine for goggles, but way too coarse for putting up live video on a big screen.

Is there anything (yet) that meets my specs? The less work I have to do to integrate it, the better. In any case I need specific product recommendations because surfing has been pretty much a waste of time: you have to drill down into product specs - sometimes obfuscated - only to discover that it's too big or has NTSC-quality (i.e., coarse) video.

[SkipGear]

1080 is out there but still a bit pricey. 7-800 line cameras are not hard to find. That fat shark micro is 330 line if I remember correctly.

Quick search.....

648 line - 12mm x 12mm - $10.00 -- http://www.banggood.com/600TVL-8_0MP-14-2_8mm-CMOS-FPV-170-Degree-Wide-Anlge-Lens-Camera-PALNTSC-p-984345.html

700 line - 15mm x 15mm - $13.00 -- http://www.banggood.com/Eachine-700TVL-3_6mm-Lens-1-3-Cmos-90-Degree-Wide-Angle-FPV-Camera-5-12V-p-992611.html

Not exactly your requirements but as I said, 1080 is hard to find still. 600-800 line is fairly common.

That is just one site to dig through. There are another 10 pages of stuff that I didn't have time to go through.