Author Topic: What would it look like... Ammunitions depot in the 60s  (Read 2169 times)

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sirenwerks

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What would it look like... Ammunitions depot in the 60s
« on: May 20, 2015, 08:15:52 AM »
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So I am thinking about an ammunitions depot for the layout.  It could just be a siding with the structures off layout, but that would be no fun.  But I can't get a handle on what ammunitions warehouses look like in the 60s.  I'm thinking corrugated or even clapboard-sided low (one - 1 1/2 story), long buildings like this...



... but I thought I'd ask outloud in case anyone might have the answer.  Anyone?

Definitiely will need a gatehouse somewhere, like this...

« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 08:18:12 AM by sirenwerks »
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pnolan48

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Re: What would it look like... Ammunitions depot in the 60s
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2015, 09:45:44 AM »
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Probably more like semi-buried concrete bunkers with an overfill of dirt. Some were dug into the sides of hills.

johnb

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Re: What would it look like... Ammunitions depot in the 60s
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2015, 09:49:23 AM »
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jnevis

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Re: What would it look like... Ammunitions depot in the 60s
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2015, 09:53:11 AM »
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Mounds of dirt with a BIG metal door on it.
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/CONCORD-Cattle-roam-in-ghost-town-at-site-of-2669475.php#photo-2143125


BTW, I still would love to build the dock area, either for weapons or containers.  Trains set loop with a switch to the "rest of the world."
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sizemore

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Re: What would it look like... Ammunitions depot in the 60s
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2015, 09:56:22 AM »
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Remember a lot of stuff in the 60's was carry over from the Army/Navy/Marines build up in the late 30's through the 40's. Many current reserve Military bases, still utilize structures built from WWII and slightly earlier (for instance Fort Indiantown Gap, PA). If you're modeling munitions usually thats kept in a shallow/below ground bunker with heavy sealed doors. Buildings like the one you show below are common during/after WWII and stored everything else.

The best example would be the GSA Depot in Curtis Bay which is now part of the Army Reserve post and Coast Guard maintenance/repair facility. You can see the lead in, as well as where the tracks used to be, and remnants of old buildings.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1929601,-76.5807018,824m/data=!3m1!1e3

Bing actually has "winter" pictures which allows better detail to be seen, you can see what I believe is an engine house, where the staging/holding yard would be and the various tracks:

http://binged.it/1FAF6Pz

On page 8 of this report shows a decent map: http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML0605/ML060580564.pdf

This report has the history of the depot: http://msa.maryland.gov/megafile/msa/stagsere/se1/se5/024000/024200/024209/pdf/msa_se5_24209.pdf

Pretty good shot from 695 looking down at the entrance: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.207004,-76.586837,3a,44y,169.56h,71.19t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sW84qQvGxCcpyu-5cbUaMFA!2e0

The S.

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sirenwerks

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Re: What would it look like... Ammunitions depot in the 60s
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2015, 12:09:54 PM »
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http://www.california-blog.com/photos-information-places/2011/7/10/seal-beach-naval-weapons-station-seal-beach-ca.html

This one was built in 1944, is still in use, and most of it has farming now

The mounded warehouse looks like it has passenger doors but no loading doors.  Would this be the way it was originally designed.

I'm rethinking... maybe I should have a mixed use warehouse facility to accept all types of supplies.  This would allow for a mix of car types (box and tnks mostly) and it can be part RR switched for the food stuffs, etc. and have a staging track behind a fence for a pretend military switcher to haul in fuel, munitions, etc., the more sensitive stuff housed in the interior of the base.  Would such a facility be realistic, my military-minded friends?
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sirenwerks

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Re: What would it look like... Ammunitions depot in the 60s
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2015, 12:19:27 PM »
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Remember a lot of stuff in the 60's was carry over from the Army/Navy/Marines build up in the late 30's through the 40's. Many current reserve Military bases, still utilize structures built from WWII and slightly earlier (for instance Fort Indiantown Gap, PA). If you're modeling munitions usually thats kept in a shallow/below ground bunker with heavy sealed doors. Buildings like the one you show below are common during/after WWII and stored everything else.

The best example would be the GSA Depot in Curtis Bay which is now part of the Army Reserve post and Coast Guard maintenance/repair facility. You can see the lead in, as well as where the tracks used to be, and remnants of old buildings.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1929601,-76.5807018,824m/data=!3m1!1e3

Bing actually has "winter" pictures which allows better detail to be seen, you can see what I believe is an engine house, where the staging/holding yard would be and the various tracks:

http://binged.it/1FAF6Pz

On page 8 of this report shows a decent map: http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML0605/ML060580564.pdf

This report has the history of the depot: http://msa.maryland.gov/megafile/msa/stagsere/se1/se5/024000/024200/024209/pdf/msa_se5_24209.pdf

Pretty good shot from 695 looking down at the entrance: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.207004,-76.586837,3a,44y,169.56h,71.19t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sW84qQvGxCcpyu-5cbUaMFA!2e0

The S.

Tim, I kinda figured sme installations would be WWII leftovers, hence my suggestion of the clapboard structures like the ones at Ft. Meade, visible from 32.  I was thinking Quonset huts as a possibility too.  But the Curtis Bay facility poses some interesting questions.  The one pad closest to the water and in front of a standing building, at the head of Field Office Rd., almost looks like it has narrow gauge track set into it, and evidence of a loop of that at the front of the pad.  I imagine this may have been for carts hauling heavy loads, like bombs or crates of bullets.  Of course, it could be my imagination too.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 12:24:46 PM by sirenwerks »
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Loren Perry

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Re: What would it look like... Ammunitions depot in the 60s
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2015, 02:14:36 PM »
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http://www.california-blog.com/photos-information-places/2011/7/10/seal-beach-naval-weapons-station-seal-beach-ca.html

This one was built in 1944, is still in use, and most of it has farming now

I was based at Seal Beach NavWepSta in the mid-1980's when I was a Navy recruiter. We had the recruiting support facility located there in Building 56. Most of the base was flatlands in a swampy environment and the majority of the buildings were simple concrete block structures with conventional peaked roofs. The actual weapons storage areas were half-buried bunkers spaced regularly over many acres. The base had its own railroad with two GE 44 tonners and numerous silver-painted 50-foot boxcars with USN graphics on their sides.

sizemore

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Re: What would it look like... Ammunitions depot in the 60s
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2015, 03:18:10 PM »
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The S., I kinda figured sme installations would be WWII leftovers, hence my suggestion of the clapboard structures like the ones at Ft. Meade, visible from 32.  I was thinking Quonset huts as a possibility too.  But the Curtis Bay facility poses some interesting questions.  The one pad closest to the water and in front of a standing building, at the head of Field Office Rd., almost looks like it has narrow gauge track set into it, and evidence of a loop of that at the front of the pad.  I imagine this may have been for carts hauling heavy loads, like bombs or crates of bullets.  Of course, it could be my imagination too.

Above ground structures would typically warehouse goods, uniforms, equipment, dry-foods, firearms, maybe small fire-arm munitions etc. I would say the depressed areas by Shell Rd. were the big munitions holding areas (bombs/artillery/heavy gun powder charges/missiles), far from any other structures/infrastructure in the case of an accident (aka the Big Kaboom).

Quonset huts, could be used for storage, the most typical function was more for personnel, barracks, offices, facilities etc. While you can still find Quonset huts on military bases today, after WWII swaths of Quonset Huts were sold off as surplus.

The loop you reference is just concrete, a return loop for a car/truck, and part of the holding pen most likely for vehicles and heavy equipment. You can still see remnants of white road paint marking walkways/lanes. Pre WWII  you could probably would see narrow gauge use on a military base, as it was common overseas during WWI. However leading up to and post WWII I would think that the use of narrow gauge on a military base would have declined switching to standard gauge state side. You incur a larger cost of maintenance for equipment (ie. motive power and cars) and incur twice the labor cost for moving items. Once from standard gauge equipment to narrow gauge equipment, then to final storage. Not saying it wasn't done, just makes more sense to unload once and not incur the cost.

The S.


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pnolan48

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Re: What would it look like... Ammunitions depot in the 60s
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2015, 05:24:45 PM »
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I might add that some of the half-buried bunkers had lightly constructed roofs, so any blast was directed upward, rather than sideways. This would be true of many smaller buildings where explosives were handled. One arms plant had many small concrete buildings instead of one big one. Better to contain any accident.

flight2000

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Re: What would it look like... Ammunitions depot in the 60s
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2015, 05:35:08 PM »
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Go to Google Maps and look up Iowa Army Ammunition Plant.  They use storage bunkers and have a large network of rail to deliver the ammunition from the manufacturing plant to the storage locations.  Each set is build to the required specs that are needed for teh type of ammo being stored there.  I'd bet there is close to 30 miles of rail there and it hasn't changed since it was built in 1940. 

Maybe this link will work.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Iowa+Army+Ammunition+Plant/@40.7966385,-91.2471947,8584m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0xe2490c23e976e431!6m1!1e1

Cheers,
Brian
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pnolan48

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Re: What would it look like... Ammunitions depot in the 60s
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2015, 07:30:37 PM »
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Notice all the small buildings connected by walkways.

randgust

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Re: What would it look like... Ammunitions depot in the 60s
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2015, 09:21:39 AM »
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One of the bigger ones in WWII and I'm pretty sure up through Vietnam was the Navajo Army Depot on the ATSF, just west of Flagstaff on the main line and south of it.   (Bellemont, AZ)  Just huge.    Most of the track, and many of the structures, are still there.   You can see one overall design theme, put it out in the middle of nowhere and keep the buildings widely separated.

Some of it has been redeveloped as industrial park, but if you follow the tracks around you'll get dizzy.  It's  like a big table  layout in there.

This should help:  http://www.uapress.arizona.edu/Books/bid1514.htm

sirenwerks

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Re: What would it look like... Ammunitions depot in the 60s
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2015, 12:34:17 PM »
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Go to Google Maps and look up Iowa Army Ammunition Plant.  They use storage bunkers and have a large network of rail to deliver the ammunition from the manufacturing plant to the storage locations.  Each set is build to the required specs that are needed for teh type of ammo being stored there.  I'd bet there is close to 30 miles of rail there and it hasn't changed since it was built in 1940. 

Maybe this link will work.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Iowa+Army+Ammunition+Plant/@40.7966385,-91.2471947,8584m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0xe2490c23e976e431!6m1!1e1

Cheers,
Brian

Very curious.  The berms around buildings is a neat feature.  I found a news article about a blast there that shows timber blast walls in place too.  This has potential, the plants modelable and could be serviced by the railroad, with a Government switcher for the massive, and subsequently off-layout, storage facility
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 02:11:33 PM by sirenwerks »
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jnevis

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Re: What would it look like... Ammunitions depot in the 60s
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2015, 12:41:34 PM »
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That is one of the features you may have noticed in the pic I posted earlier.  The rail runs between a set of berms.  One side is the bunker and the other is a timber wall, each section has alternating bunkers.  The set up in Concord, and others, is acres of these tracks and bunkers.

Sections of Concord are still in use by the railroads, but mainly for car storage and the docks are set up for container transloading.
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