Bad Amtrak wreck in Philadelpha

[Rich_S]

Rich,

I didn't post that article, because it's what I believe; I posted it, because I thought it was relevant to the conversation on attempted absolution by railroads.  I have refrained from stating my opinions regarding this tragic accident and, hopefully, will continue to do so, because (1) the investigation is not yet complete, (2) people in the U.S. are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, and (3) speculation before the investigation is complete sometimes does more damage than good, e.g., Richard Jewell and his "trial by media."

Just this week, involving this accident, the mayor of Philadelphia stated, "Clearly, it was reckless in terms of the driving by the engineer. There’s no way in the world he should have been going that fast into the curve.”  See http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2015/05/14/ntsb-official-blasts-mayor-nutter-for-blasting-idiot-amtrak-engineer/.  I'm glad the NTSB official responded, because there are many that will take the mayor's statements as gospel.

Is the engineer guilty?  I don't know.  Was the mayor out of line for purely political purposes?  I don't know.  I just wish people could let these things get resolved without demanding (or creating their own) resolutions in CSI-style expedience.

DFF

Dave,  We are saying the same thing, It seems the media is trying to hang the engineer. From my point of view, it seems the engineer does not have a lot of faith, that his employer has his back. We do not know what happened and I still believe in innocent until proven guilty. But to follow up, I've also seen what goes on, on the inside, that people not working for the railroad don't see. We now live in a culture where someone has to be held responsible. Unless they can find something wrong with the locomotive, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this guy is probably done as an engineer. I hope I'm proven wrong, but we'll just have to wait and see? Railroading is one of the few jobs left, where your entire life can be changed forever within a 12 hour period.

[ljudice]

Wasn't there an incident on PC years ago where an engineer was actually killed in a rock attack??  On ex NYC/NH lines?

Remember early AMTK locos had rock screens on the cab windows??

[davefoxx]

Unless they can find something wrong with the locomotive, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this guy is probably done as an engineer.

I don't even think that you have to go out on a limb: I believe that unless the investigators prove that the engineer was 0% responsible for the accident (and assuming that he can psychologically get over the deaths and climb back aboard a locomotive), he'll never run a train again.

DFF

[packers#1]

Even if you accept that "rocking" or equivalent was the catalyst, how does the train accelerate?   Is it like the movies where the engineer is rendered unconscious and slumps over the control stand, putting it into full throttle?  Then he comes to, realizes what is happening and hits the emergencies too late?

Perhaps the engineer was startled, accidently pushed the throttle forward, and realized his mistake at the last minute?

[Specter3]

Probably thought he was being shot at. Accelerated to escape the shooter. In panic forgot where he was. Easily happen in my mind. Especially if he is on radio with other train that has taken a hit as well.

[up1950s]

Perhaps the engineer was startled, accidently pushed the throttle forward, and realized his mistake at the last minute?

That's my thinking , in his haste to duck and cover he hit the go faster lever . When came up he was too late to recover . Same type of damage on the Acella window . If the windows are equal the mass and velocity of both objects had to be close to the same . I think the Acella was struct in the same general area to the curve , not positive though .

[nkalanaga]

If the throttle is "pull back for accelerate, push forward for braking", accidentally pushing, or passing out and falling onto, the throttle handle would seem more likely to slow the train.

It's interesting that the NTSB, right after checking the data recorder, specified that the emergency brake application was "operator initiated", but they DIDN'T say the same about the unexplained acceleration.  That sounds like the throttle position wasn't changed, and the speed increase was due to something else.

[delamaize]

That's my thinking , in his haste to duck and cover he hit the go faster lever . When came up he was too late to recover . Same type of damage on the Acella window . If the windows are equal the mass and velocity of both objects had to be close to the same . I think the Acella was struct in the same general area to the curve , not positive though .

this is the same reaction that I had, when I saw the possible bullet impacts on the windscreens. Fight or Flight reaction, Ya know?

[Rich_S]

assuming that he can psychologically get over the deaths and climb back aboard a locomotive

DFF

Warning .... Warning .... Warning, thread drift.  This is a sad fact and one of the reasons for Operation Life Saver. The vast majority of engineers in their career will kill or maim somebody at a grade crossing, quite a few have gone off on disability because they could not get back in the cab, I personally know one engineer who lives with this trauma. Everybody is different, but I wish him well. In my heart, I do not believe this was a deliberate act on his part. Hopefully in time we will learn the truth.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.   

[conrail98]

If the throttle is "pull back for accelerate, push forward for braking", accidentally pushing, or passing out and falling onto, the throttle handle would seem more likely to slow the train.

It's interesting that the NTSB, right after checking the data recorder, specified that the emergency brake application was "operator initiated", but they DIDN'T say the same about the unexplained acceleration.  That sounds like the throttle position wasn't changed, and the speed increase was due to something else.

Excellent point, especially after they said it went from just under the posted speed limit at 77 up to 107 in the 60 seconds prior to the crash. Seems to me by not saying that was operator initiated they're digging into something else. But if that were the case, wouldn't they "ground" the ACS64s then while they check?

Phil

[Ed Kapuscinski]

And all this speculation is the EXACT reason I wish they wouldn't release ANY details. Sheesh guys.

[Hyperion]

Seems to me by not saying that was operator initiated they're digging into something else. But if that were the case, wouldn't they "ground" the ACS64s then while they check?

Not claiming that the throttle application was "operator initiated" is just the NTSB not leaping to premature conclusions; particularly of the variety that get someone charged with a crime, which would likely be the immediate next step if they were to even come close to claiming he had fault.  These things get extremely political, the NTSB knows that better than anyone, and a hint of fault is going to have a district attorney placing charges (the State AG could always drop them later if things develop, but they're gonna want to look good and place them as soon as they think they have something that might stick).  The NTSB knows that if the people who are operating this equipment don't trust them to have their best interests, they're not going to get their incredibly vital cooperation in the future whenever these sorts of things happen.  That's why the NTSB chewed out the Mayor for saying the engineer was at fault.  It may be true.  The NTSB may even be thinking it at this point.  But they can't have the guy getting flayed in the court of public opinion -- or worse, get actual charges placed against him -- and still get his needed cooperation.  Claiming that the brake was 'operator-initiated' has no potential negative repercussions and, if anything, makes it appear that the investigators are on the operator's 'side' which can be useful to getting a guy to open up.

[Smike]

And all this speculation is the EXACT reason I wish they wouldn't release ANY details. Sheesh guys.

While I agree with not slinging crap around, the disscuission here has been very civil and any speculation has been backed up with at least some merit. Given that the known facts do not make any rational sense to explain the cause, speculation is only natural.

[conrail98]

Not claiming that the throttle application was "operator initiated" is just the NTSB not leaping to premature conclusions; particularly of the variety that get someone charged with a crime, which would likely be the immediate next step if they were to even come close to claiming he had fault.  These things get extremely political, the NTSB knows that better than anyone, and a hint of fault is going to have a district attorney placing charges (the State AG could always drop them later if things develop, but they're gonna want to look good and place them as soon as they think they have something that might stick).  The NTSB knows that if the people who are operating this equipment don't trust them to have their best interests, they're not going to get their incredibly vital cooperation in the future whenever these sorts of things happen.  That's why the NTSB chewed out the Mayor for saying the engineer was at fault.  It may be true.  The NTSB may even be thinking it at this point.  But they can't have the guy getting flayed in the court of public opinion -- or worse, get actual charges placed against him -- and still get his needed cooperation.  Claiming that the brake was 'operator-initiated' has no potential negative repercussions and, if anything, makes it appear that the investigators are on the operator's 'side' which can be useful to getting a guy to open up.

Don't disagree with any of what you said. I would still like to have seen them do something with the ACS64s, regardless of where initial findings were heading, to cover all bases,

Phil

[Smike]

Don't disagree with any of what you said. I would still like to have seen them do something with the ACS64s, regardless of where initial findings were heading, to cover all bases,

Phil

Given the very short history of the ACS64's I would agree. Based also the idea that deliberate acceleration doesn't fit a plausable scenero (While still a possible outcome in the end).