Bad Amtrak wreck in Philadelpha

[Chris333]

From the Facebooks

[Rich_S]

And this is why we have so much Euro/Asian equipment, because the governments of manufacturers' countries are smart enough to bolster (aka subsidize) significant efficient high speed and interurban rail transportation design which has created a market that can sustain manufacturers in those countries, of a quality that American companies can't compete with.  For those companies, re-outfitting their designs for America is probably more akin to charity, they take pity on us and give us their products.  The US has propped (pun intended) the aircraft industry here so we make better fighters and bombers.  The national procuement strategy is to buy planes we don't really need just to employ people and keep companies afloat to be there in war time - which seems to be always these days annyway.  There is talk of peace, but our economy would suffer from it too much.  European and Asian manufacturers profit more from their countrymens' love of and proclivity for travel; conflict be damned, they're going on holiday and they benefit by being more relaxed and informed about the rest of the world from it.  Funnily, the manufacturing know-how for planes could easily be transferred to trains if we (our leadership) would just focus on redeveloping (our) first world in ways that could benefit many.  Think about it, a strong national rail system would employ lots of people across the country, rather than some in a few key places.  If we could just figure out a way to deliver tactical military strike by rail...

I have to through a flag on the field on this one  My first question is how much of your paycheck are you willing to give up to bolster (aka subsidize) companies to build high speed rail equipment here in the USA? Remember folks, the government does not produce anything, ever penny they have comes from "We the People". As far as supporting aircraft companies so they stay in business for times of war, that is not true either. US Air, Delta, United Air Lines, Southwest, Air Tran and a myriad of other operators are the ones keeping aircraft companies in business. High speed rail works in Europe and Asia because that is what they started with after world war two and the geography of their countries. The high speed rail lines in France have a curvature of 1 degree, are you willing to give up your home so the rail lines can be straighten out?

The airline industry got a big foot hold in this country because the distance between New York City and Los Angeles is 2,789 miles, the distance between Berlin and Paris is 655 miles.  I am all for the North East Corridor and the California Corridor, but high speed rail from coast to coast is just way to expensive a proposition. The current rate for new rail construction is 1 million dollars per mile and that cost goes up in mountainous Terrain. Just to build a new high speed line between NYC and LA, starting price would be $2,789,000,000, just for the track. You know you're going to have cost over runs, court battles with home owners who refuse to sell their land and so forth.  Sure high speed rail seems sexy, but I'm not sure I'd like to be on a train going 335 mph that plasters a deer or horse that jumped the fence in the middle of Wyoming or Nebraska. 

My last point, railroads still do haul large amounts of military equipment, not the passenger railroad (Amtrak) but the freight railroads. As for Military personal, they fly in military aircraft, because the military can build a runway anywhere in the world. Last point, the freight railroads do employ lots of people all across this country. If you want to go after another industry, ask why we still have long haul trucking? Why aren't those trailers and containers riding on rail cars? Trains get better fuel mileage per ton mile than trucks and the reduced truck traffic on the interstate highway system would lighten the ware on the highways, which would reduce the cost of maintaining the highways, which should reduce the taxes collected for maintaining the highways. I don't think the problem in this country is the lack of high speed rail, it's the over use of long haul trucking   

[jagged ben]

My first question is how much of your paycheck are you willing to give up to bolster (aka subsidize) companies to build high speed rail equipment here in the USA? ...

More than I'm willing to have spent on dropping bombs on far away countries.

[peteski]

More than I'm willing to have spent on dropping bombs on far away countries.

Not even in the name of the so-called "National Security"?!   

I think we better stop this OT venture before we get the lock!

[packers#1]

Yesterday you asked where the reverser was on the ACS-64... It's right behind the throttle.   It's a 3 way switch with a little ball handle.  Look closely at the cab picture I posted and you can see it set to "FWD" on the leftmost position.

I'm a sophomore IE student, so please forgive me if this sounds like I'm talking out of my  , but having the three way switch there really doesn't seem like a great design because it does leave the door open for an engineer to make the simple mistake of accelerating when he intended to brake, or vice versa. Especially since this is a new locomotive with a different design than previous locomotives. I'd even say that having the throttle be push to accelerate is a bad design as well, because I believe (although if I'm wrong then ignore the rest of this sentence) that a person's initial reaction, if they're startled, is going to be to push that lever forwards if their hand is on it. 

[Smike]

Meanwhile back to the original topic. 

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/PR20150520.aspx

Here is the latest release from the NTSB. Seems they are working through the engineers cell phone records. Not that they suspect it as a cause, but sounds like there was acitivty on his phone on the same day, and then need to cross reference the time stamps with the event to ensure it was not in use just prior to the crash. Other than that they don't say much.

[peteski]

Aren't boat throttles push-forward-to-accelerate?  Airplane throttles? How about the throttle on a motorcycle?  It has been a very long time since I rode one but I seem to recall that you move your wrist forward to accelerate.

From what I have been reading here, the other electric locos employed by Amtrak have similar control layout to the one we are discussing here. If that is the case (bad design or not), the engineer should be familiar with their operation. So are hundreds (or maybe thousands) of European engineers that drive all those locos in Europe).

[Smike]

I highly doubt that any engineer would be unable to notice that the train was accelerating while thinking they were slowing it down for over 60 seconds (incorrect use of throttle)  As a passenger on NEC trains, even with best of track work you can tell that 100 mph feels a lot different than 50mph. 

The whole throttle questions to me comes down to is it possible that the engineer suffered a period of unconsciousness and fell forward on the throttle which pushed it forward. (speculation of course of the engineer being rendered unconscious)   

[wazzou]

Motorcycle's throttles are twisted towards the driver.

[Dave V]

10 pages of conjecture and very little fact...   

[victor miranda]

there has been quite a lot of 'fact' in this thread.

the part that is frustrating is that none of them add up to anything useful.

throttle/brake levers ....
rock strikes...
how automated train controls work
what engineers do
what the data recorders record and do not record.

our abilities here do not give us a path to make improvements to avoid future repeats of this incident.

my head and heart hurt...
 

[eric220]

10 pages of conjecture and very little fact...   

Welcome to the Internet.

[Smike]

the part that is frustrating is that none of them add up to anything useful.

+1

[Bob Bufkin]

I'll just wait for the NTSB to post their final report.  They are damn good on what they do.  One thing I didn't realze that there was only one person in the cab of pasenger trains.  Got to agree with the union that there should be two in the cab.

[up1950s]

I'll just wait for the NTSB to post their final report.  They are damn good on what they do.  One thing I didn't realize that there was only one person in the cab of passenger trains.  Got to agree with the union that there should be two in the cab.

Like almost everything , follow the money . When they dropped the second engineer/fireman I was understanding that the Conductor/Bossman was to take that Fireman's seat . Instead of hiring an extra Trainman/Ticket Puncher/Brakeman to replace the Conductor they risked the lives of all .