DS64's, jmri, routes, and all that

[carlso]

As of today, our DS-64 problem is not a problem anymore. rather than rehashing everything from above, let me say that for  3 consecutive power ups of the layout we have not experienced the problem. That's great but I will hold off telling what we did until we can safely say the problem is solved.

Carl

[carlso]

As of today, 4 power ups on layout and no turnouts throwing. About ready to claim victory.

Carl

[GaryHinshaw]

Please don't forget to report back when you do.

[carlso]

Gary,

I have time now, so I will attempt to clearly explain what I did. I know you are familiar with the DS64 therefore most likely familiar with the very poor,IMHO, instruction manuals. Keep in mind that we have 14 DS64's and with some outputs throwing two turnouts we  have 50-55 turnouts. Our problem has stopped and I am keeping my fingers crossed. I will give it another test this Saturday morning.

Enough background, what I did was to re-program each DS64 as if never done before. In reading the instructions, it says to assign the unit an address by going into that mode and then selecting the Switch option, enter the address you want and give it either a thrown or closed option. Well in my initial set up I gave the thrown command and that set the address. I then proceeded to program each output the same way by giving each one a thrown command. When we powered up the layout the turnouts basically all went thrown.

I did not read anywhere in the instruction, anything mentioning a default but that is the way the system seemed to be working as thrown being a default. So, I went and re-programmed each DS64 the way the manual tells me to but this time I set all of the entries by giving them a closed command. Since doing that, we have not seen the problem. Did I set a default of closed, I do not know but that appears to be the case.

Having said all of that, we discovered that one of the outputs on one DS64 was defective and not working. We replaced that DS64. Could the problem have been caused by that one output port that caused a short that sent the turnouts into action ? Who knows?
Also, when I re-programmed the units all routes were erased so they are not into  the units as yet. We only had 7 or 8 routes total and next week or two I will reintroduce 3 or 4 each week.

I/we are being very optimistic that we have solved the issue.

Please, all comments or suggestions are welcome from anybody.

Carl

[carlso]

Bummer,

The "fix" failed, so back to the drawing board or just except that they are Digitrax crap and live with them.

Carl

[carlso]

I think we have finally solved our problem permanently. We did everything that I mentioned above as far as programming the DS64 and then each port. We were using track power for some 64's and an old power pack for the others. We removed all 64's from track power and placed them on the power pack also. We have not had a problem for 1-1.5 months now. Success ? Sure hope so.

Carl

[Bangorboy]

Hi, glad to see you have better luck with your DS64 routes.  I didn't have any advice on how you solved the problem, because I never powered any of my Loconet devices off the track bus in the first place.  From your experience, it appears that decision saved me a lot of grief!

Mind you, I'm not claiming any superior skill, knowledge or intellect here.  It just happens that I chose a separate power bus for the DS64s, BDL168s etc. because I didn't want to dilute power to my trains.

One other comment, Gary H has mentioned going to touch screens again.  I had said early in the thread that touch screens was a reason I wanted to use JMRI, and I still think JMRI routes is the better choice, rather than using routes in the DS64 or command station.  I have changed my mind about touch screens, though.  I intended when I mentioned it earlier to use touch screen monitors, connected by USB to the main JMRI computer.  A couple weeks ago, I tried using an iPad I had on hand, and it worked!  I think I'm going to try to find two or three more used iPads and place them around the layout.  They'll still need power to charge them, but won't need USB cables strung all around with all the other wiring under my layout.

Anyway, hope your problem stays solved!

I keep forgetting I have an automatic signature programmed into my profile here

[carlso]

Bill,

thanks for the reply and comments. Our Digitrax system only puts out 11.3 v to the rail and as I said "in the beginning" we used track power for the 64's, but only 3 or 4 at that time. As we added 64's, up to 14 now, we started having the problem real bad. If you have looked and read the "manual" that comes with the 64's it states track or other power source. After we added all the 64's to their own power bus that is at 14v the problem seems to have gone away. So, I suppose the 64's were under powered, on track power, and were competing with each other and that may have caused the problem ?

Carl

[C855B]

... as I said "in the beginning" we used track power for the 64's...

Carl, in everyone's defense, this statement turned out to be key and missed by everybody. Good detective work on your part, and we have all learned from this. While the manual may specify that DS64's can run from track power, it's not advisable for more than a couple (as you found), and, frankly, I don't know anybody who doesn't put large-scale Digitrax logic on their own supply(ies). So nobody here experienced your scenario, or at least admitted to it. I suspect the core problem was voltage sagging when running trains.

IMHO the track bus should serve but one purpose - powering trains. Beyond one or two devices or a small layout, the fixed stuff should be on its own power bus or a dedicated booster, and this includes switch machines.

If there's a fault here with Digitrax, it's (in my experience) a failure to recognize problems resulting from scaling up. DCC in general works great on small to medium layouts, you can get away with a lot. But when layouts start getting big, new issues like yours emerge, leaving everybody scratching their heads. People look at me funny when I drag out the ol' HP oscilloscope, but, seriously, it takes that level of test and diagnosis to see issues similar to what you experienced.

I was reminded this past Saturday of a similar "puzzling" situation operating the club's portable layout at a new-to-us show. When our Digitrax duplex throttles wouldn't work, I glanced over at the HO'ers next to us, to see they were running NCE wireless. Oops. I knew they couldn't coexist - NCE blasts a constant signal on 2.4GHz, jamming the band - but our club wouldn't believe me (we have a self-appointed DCC "expert" who is mostly bluster). It took the Digitrax rep who happened to be at the show to spend an hour with us coming to the same conclusion.

[carlso]

Mike, thanks for the reply and input, But I want to suggest a change in one of your thoughts. We did not ever experience the problem while operating the layout (running trains, 5 or 6 at a time), we only experienced the problem when , for the day, first powering up the layout. Nothing else running at all. No problem the rest of the day.

I or I should say we decided for the last hoorah that it had to be associated with not using a power buss for the DS54's.

It seems that that may be the problem but why does the  manual state track power and the 64 has terminals for track power ? ? ?  Will keep up with any needed updates. It has been fun, I like puzzles.

Carl

[GaryHinshaw]

Thank you for following up on this Carl.  Even if our understanding of the resolution is incomplete, it is good to know of a solution.

Bill, glad you're finding the ipad works well.  So far my proof of concept is limited to serving panels over the web, using the jmri server, and using my wife's laptop as a client.  It works well, so I know it will work with tablets now too.  Sadly, I still have a lot of panel development to do as I have been focused more on layout hardware (still....), but it was pretty easy to get something basic up and running quickly.

-gfh

[Santa Fe Guy]

On my SFRSD we are fortunate to have a young mate who is very good with Digitrax stuff. As we upgraded to Digitrax Duplex some years ago then the signalling we decided I should run all my BDLs & SE8C's of a separate power supply as too my tortoise machines. This has proven to be very worthwhile. The only other items connected to track power are my UP5's to let us know if we have a short.
Rod.

[carlso]

As an update, we have now been running our DS64's on their own power bus line and since doing that around 5-6 weeks ago we have not experienced the "problem" we were having at layout "start up".

I have not added any routes back in to the system but may try that this week. I do not anticipate any problems in doing this, but we shall see.

Carl

[Bangorboy]

Thanks for the update, Carl.

I will add this to my knowledge base about the DS64.  It appears to be a good device if it is hooked up properly, but sometimes it isn't clear what might constitute "improper" wiring.

So far, as you found, power them separately from other devices.
Don't connect to track power, though the manual says they can be powered that way.  Unless you have a very small layout, that'll lead to trouble.
Don't try use a route on a DS64 to trigger another route on the SAME DS64.  Cascading routes to other DS64s appears to be trouble-free.

Did I miss anything essential?

[Chinapig]

I've followed this post with great interest.  I'm using 5 DS64s and I've still got the same old problem of turnouts firing at start up despite:

Feeding them with 16vac, and

Only triggering routes to other DS64 units - never the same DS64.

If I wait a minute or two after turning on the command station and then turn on the PSU for the DS64s I don't get the problem so it appears to be the same problem you guys have.

Having checked I see I'm using the Trk A and Trk B terminals for the 16vac input - is this what you folks are using?

Ted