Crestron "smart house" technology for layout control

[GaryHinshaw]

The March MR has an intriguing article on touch screen layout control using smart building control technology.  The system basically consists of a central processor that interfaces with generic touch screen control panels (up to 256 screens per node).   These have been programmed to do a number of things on the club's N scale layout, from block selection on a hybrid DC/DCC pike, to route control of multiple turnouts.

The article just scratches the surface of the topic, so I'm here to gather more info.  Does anyone here have experience with this type of unit, especially how to program custom touch screens?  It seems like a very powerful system, but one that requires the user to build all the modules from scratch (at this time).

I definitely like the idea of touch screen control panels replacing hardware, but perhaps jmri already supports this capability(?), with lots of existing freeware to boot.

Thoughts?

P.S. MR subscribers can see a demo video here.

[C855B]

I'll have to pick-up a copy and see what they're describing. You and others here know I've been fooling around with "smart home" technologies at a couple of levels for the layout building, and so far I'm mostly disappointed and frustrated, moving on with more standard and tried-and-true control systems.

But I don't know the Creston system, and probably should look at it under my jaundiced view. One consistency I have learned so far regardless of system - this stuff gets expensive quickly.

[GaryHinshaw]

Thanks Mike, I was hoping you had already evaluated this system, but it would be great of you did have a look. 

If the touch screen programmers kit is at all friendly, this could be enormously powerful.  The article does elude to a variety of potential applications including block & signal control, lighting effects, zoned sound, animations, etc.  The Elmhurst system is using the main processor and touch screens to communicate with Bruce Chubb's SMINI cards for device control on the layout.  (I don't know anything about the capability of those cards either.)  It seems like it would be easy to set up a route control panel that also echoes signal indications, which would be especially helpful for signals that are hard to see from the operator's perspective -- until such time as on-board video becomes standard.   

P.S. I had a typo in my initial post: the system is made by Crestron, not Creston.

[reinhardtjh]

I read that. It was for a club so cost might be a little less of a concern.  Plus the article was written by Lou Santello and he just happens to be a Crestron dealer.  So I imagine there was a discount of some kind.  Lou posts a lot in the Yahoo Layout construction group.   https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/LayoutConstruction/info  Lou apparently works for http://www.media-designers.com/ but don't click the link unless you want annoying background music to play. 

At one point the article notes they have more than 300 DPDT relays powering layout sections.  Apparently to select between DCC and four DC cabs.

[C855B]

OMG, Crestron. That's super-high-end, deep-pockets stuff, a system more or less ported from high-end corporate boardrooms and facility control rooms. I may be blowing entirely too much cash on my project as it is - don't we all? - but Crestron is well out of my pocketbook. A Crestron dealer was one of the bidders on a traffic control center video wall I integrated eight years ago - not quite seven figures, but close enough.

It's an entirely different class of control system than what I was playing with. Quirky Wink is about my speed, and they have integrator bits that might well work in MRR applications.

... So I imagine there was a discount of some kind. ...

Probably more like free, as a product demo. We're talking tens of thousands of dollars here.

[C855B]

The local newsstand was out of MR, so I'm likely not going to see the article. Any links to other info about the setup?

[railnerd]

We've built a similar system at my HO club with JMRI running on a computer, older touch screens, and some home-brewed software to glue everything together.

Using the Crestron stuff is absolutely a "deep pockets" solution— if someone in that club is a licensed home tech installer, I can see that maybe they are getting a much lower price.

-Dave

[Scottl]

A brief survey of these systems suggests that you could spend multiples of your train collection value on control alone.  I tried to come up with a list of things this could do and found in the end it is more of a solution looking for a problem than the other way around for me.  Others might find a way to justify the cost, but I think from an operations standpoint (including room controls through DCC-relay systems) that JMRI is more attractive to me.

[GaryHinshaw]

I'm surprised the MR article said nothing about cost.  I guess jmri will be the path forward for the foreseeable future, and maybe that's fine.

[Scottl]

I think too that the community effort of JMRI will make implementation easier given that many modelers will be seeking similar kinds of control functions.

My fear as well is that adopting a particular proprietary hardware solution is risky until the players get established.  You could end up with a `Betamax` system!

[C855B]

I just read the article, with a little help from a fellow (thanks!). My knee-jerk reaction was right. The processor cabinet alone was $25-40K, at least - without seeing the back I can't tell how many expansion buses are there, and those are cost multipliers. I can edu-guess the touchpads would have been $800-1200 each. No telling on the relay rack, but DIN rail relays are $20-25 each from the "standard" suppliers, so figure $6000-7500 in relays alone.

I guess in the particular MRR setting you can call the custom programming "free", but had this been a professional environment, an integration engineer like me would be sitting there at a wallet-numbing $150/hour (fully absorbed corporate cost rate), spending probably a couple of months tweaking configuration files getting all that spaghetti to sing from the same hymnal.

It is a fascinating exercise, for sure, and I really should make the effort to see it in person since it's only six hours away. Also, given the MR magazine lead times on articles, this was probably written two or three years ago, and the whole "smart home" landscape has changed since then... well... turned on its ear, really. I'd like to see somebody try the same thing with the newer ZigBee-based or other consumer-priced control systems.

One other thing... it is certainly a pioneering effort, and they should be thanked for blazing the trail. You can always tell who the pioneers are... they're the ones with the arrows in their backs.

[Chris333]

Geez what kinda trains are you guyz running that take so much to make them move 

[GaryHinshaw]

Ok, I'll pass. 

So let me turn it around and tell you what I'd like to have for TBC, and you tell me if jmri can support it.  The staging yard(s) are distributed around the layout room and trains will be shuffling around between them during sessions.  I'd like a single operator to be able to manage them conveniently with a single portable device.  I'm picturing a wi-fi tablet that has the capability to serve as a throttle (using WiThrottle or Engine Driver), has the capability to display track occupancy on a (virtual) track diagram (should be doable with Panel Pro, I believe), and lets me assign routes with virtual buttons on a touch screen track diagram (I'm thinking something like this must be possible, but I don't recall seeing it done with jmri).  This would give me complete control of the yards in a single device.      Go with jmri?

[C855B]

I'm not all that deep into JMRI, at least not yet, but I'll bet that somebody is doing what you want, or something very similar. I don't know if the pad/tablet nut has been cracked, but if I had to implement something like this tomorrow I'd get a Win8 tablet and see how far I could get with it alone.

We're thinking somewhat alike. It's my objective to use tablets mounted on the escutcheon as local tower and yard panels, but give a single operator the ability to have that same panel display on his device and assume control. So it's coming, you're just ahead of me in having someplace to put such a system.

[VonRyan]

I'm total opposite. No fancy computers or other stuff. I want a nice big industrial-grade toggle-switch for every turnout, and indicator lights using Western Electric switchboard lamps and glass covers.
I would use switchboard "keys" as well, but at $15ea online, I'll stick with dirt cheap industrial surplus toggles.