DCC Wiring Help - Still Need some help.

[mmyers]

I have found that when one side of the loop works and the other does not the problem is usually one or two feeders still connected to the main line. Take a break, go back in fresh and look for it. That is my best guess but it generally works for me.

Martin Myers

[elnscale]

Stewart,

The AR-1 is really easy to wire and adjust.

You MUST isolate the reversing loop completely. That means both tracks at both ends. As Martin has pointed out you must make sure that all of your regular feeders are removed from the reversing loop tracks. The only connections must be from the AR-1.

Back to the AR-1. You isolate the reversing loop. You connect the main line power from the main line tracks A & B to the AR-1's Track A/B inputs and then the two tracks of the reversing loop to the outputs of the AR-1. The manual is here. Then follow the tuning directions in the manual. They speak about adjustments to be made if the booster trips and adjustments if the AR-1 trips too many times.

Both Jason and I have shown you where your reversing loops are. It is unclear to me where on the layout your latest picture is meant to represent. Just review Jason's diagram for the location of your reversing loops and isolate accordingly. Hook up your AR-1s and adjust.

I have a number of these on my layout and they work fine in my experience.

HTH

Steve

[StewRRFan]

Ok - I have removed the two reversing loops as was pointed out.  I just simplified the track plan.  What I have now is the yard as pictured here.  If a train leaves from A and returns to B - I have one reversing loop.  When the AR1 was installed, I could move through B with no issues but it would short out at A regardless of the direction.  My revised question is based on the new information where do I wire in the reverser?  Thank you to all for your help and patience on this one.  I just cannot get this figured out. - Ross

[peteski]

Ross, you have lost me completely!
You originally provided a track diagram which had actual loops in it. You were advised how to install reverser for those loops. 

Then you said it didn't work but you didn't show exactly where you installed the reverser (relative to your original diagram). 

Now you provided a different diagram with point A and B on it. In order to have a reverse loop, the track has to loop back into itself.  However in your latest diagram I don't see any way for a train driving straight from point A to ever end up at point B.  Do you really need a reverser between point A and B?  I just don't understand.  I think we need to see a bigger picture (where the actual loop connecting A to B is.

[elnscale]

Peteski is correct. The latest diagram has ZERO reversing loops.

The best way to think of a reversing loop is any way for a train to come back to where it started and be reversed in direction. Any way.

Take your original layout plan as simplified by Jason. If you are travelling from 3 towards 1 and then at 1 you take the inner loop to 2, when you get to 2 you will be travelling back to 1 and 3. Thus you have reversed the train. Similarly if you are travelling from 1 to 3 and at 3 take the inner loop to 4, go past 4 and backup through 7 (or go past B and backup to 7) and then continue backing up to 1, you will have reversed the train. This is the second reversing loop on that layout.

Now look at your latest diagram. As Peteski points out, there is no way if a train leave A that it can get back to A with the train reversed in direction. Same applies to B. No way for it to happen. There are no reversing loops on this layout. This is a basic point to point layout with no loops and no reversing loops. Just wire with feeders as needed, always connecting the left rail to the rail A feed and the right rail to the rail B feed. No different than if you were wiring this for DC.

Steve

[StewRRFan]

Let me show you the photos.  First one is the yard.  Track wired black on the right rail, red left.  Worked.
The corner is the track leaving from and return to the yard.
Long photo is the loop and then returning. There is a reverse loop in the long peninsula, but that is wired in correctly with one AR1.

Just tracing the black rail around brings it back to a red rail once it returns to the yard. So somewhere I need to drop in the reverser, correct?  Hopefully this clears the questions up.  I might be dense on this and really appreciate the help and feedback.

[peteski]

To me those sideways photos aren't much help.   Plus they chop up your layout into several parts.  It might be clear to you (since you built it and since you see it everyday) but to me it is still not very clear.

Since you constructed this yourself, would it be possible for you to draw the entire part of the layout in questions on a piece of paper. Try to make it more like what you see on the layout (than the 1st diagram you posted).  If you can lay the track down, it can't be that difficult to draw it on paper...

Once you come up with the full diagram we should have no problem figuring out a reverse loop location.  Also think about this: It is not a DCC problem. If you ran your trains with DC, you would still need the reverse loop section installed in the same spot (whatever that spot will be).

[mmyers]

Do A and B connect past the right end of your drawing? If they do you have reversing section(s).

Martin Myers

[StewRRFan]

MMyers - Yes they do connect between A and B.  What I am struggling with is where to wire in the AR-1.  I had it in near "A" but it keeps shorting out.  No issues with engines passing over "B".  My thoughts were to split the yard between 16/17/25 however, still having the same issue with the shorts.

[elnscale]

Stewart,

You say that you have a problem with getting an AR-1 wired correctly. And yet, as Peteski has pointed out, based on your photos and your answer to mmeyers, you have not posted a complete diagram of your latest layout. The one that you posted on Dec 29 did not contain any reversing loops and now you have explained that it is not the complete layout - and, in fact, omits the reversing loop, the very cause of your problems.

As Peteski points out, this is not a DCC issue. It is an electrical issue. And it applies to both DC and DCC. Now, I, like him, assure you that if you post a complete diagram of your layout, we will easily be able to point out the reversing loops and we will be able to tell you how to wire the AR-1. And, also how to troubleshoot them. If you go back to your diagram of Dec 5 as simplified by Jason on Dec 7, you will see that we did these things for you subsequently: identified reversing loops; identified where to wire the AR-1 and identified the troubleshoot sections of the manuals.

We are here to help you, but you must understand that if you give incomplete information, it is difficult if not impossible to give you accurate answers in response.

Steve

[StewRRFan]

Thank you again for the help.  Ignoring everything prior to this post, attached is the track diagram.  First is the yard with the 2 departures, A & B.  Second is the modified loop.  I am aware there is a reverse from C to D.  AR1 is installed a working.  As for the rest, I leave it in your hands for feedback.  I have not worked in the DC world in the last 30 years so I have no way to comment on whether this is electrical or DDC specific.  This is why I am asking. 

[elnscale]

Stewart,

IMO, there is one reversing loop on what you have now shown. It is the track running from C up in the 2 o'clock direction (put differently when travelling from A through C and taking the left track of the Y at C). If you were to remove that track then there is no way to leave the yard from either A or B and get back into the yard at either of them with the train reversed.

If you label where that track up from C hits the mainline loop as E, then you need to electrically isolate both ends of C-E (so that the turnout at each end is NOT part of the isolated track) and isolate both rails at each end. Then wire your AR-1 to the track from C towards A before it reaches the crossing. Wire from that point, one rail to the TRACK A and one rail to the track B inputs of the AR-1. Next wire the two reversing loop outputs of the AR-1 to the isolated rails at C-E (does not matter which goes to which). You might also need to adjust the AR-1 (I gave you the procedure and also a link to the manual in an earlier post).

That is all that you need to do.

Steve

[wcfn100]

Stewart,

IMO, there is one reversing loop on what you have now shown. It is the track running from C up in the 2 o'clock direction (put differently when travelling from A through C and taking the left track of the Y at C). If you were to remove that track then there is no way to leave the yard from either A or B and get back into the yard at either of them with the train reversed.

If you label where that track up from C hits the mainline loop as E, then you need to electrically isolate both ends of C-E (so that the turnout at each end is NOT part of the isolated track) and isolate both rails at each end. Then wire your AR-1 to the track from C towards A before it reaches the crossing. Wire from that point, one rail to the TRACK A and one rail to the track B inputs of the AR-1. Next wire the two reversing loop outputs of the AR-1 to the isolated rails at C-E (does not matter which goes to which). You might also need to adjust the AR-1 (I gave you the procedure and also a link to the manual in an earlier post).

That is all that you need to do.

Steve

I think in practice it may be better to have a longer reversing section.


From what I'm seeing, I think if you isolate the yard from the rest where I have the red lines and then wire the AR1 between the two, you should be okay.   



Jason

[elnscale]

Jason,

What you say would work. But...

There is one big problem with it and that is that you should never have trains entering at both ends of a reversing loop. This is an issue in what you have described because it is not unreasonable to want to have a train leaving the yard at both A and B.

Another thing (not sure if it is an issue or not) is that the whole yard would have to be powered from the switched outputs of the AR-1. Stewart's yard is quite extensive and so you essentially will need to create a bus from the AR-1's outputs, through the AR-1 and through the track A/B feeder inputs.

If I were to do what you suggest, I would probably use a PM-42 (or similar) instead of the AR-1. Configure one of the outputs as a reversible power district, call the whole of the yard a power district and run my bus from that section of the PM42. This would not resolve the issue of two trains exiting and/or entering but would deal with everything coming through an AR-1.

The choice of the whole yard being a reversing section may also lead to problems needing electrical redesign in the future if reversing loops (e.g. a turning Y or a turntable) were added to the yard in the future.

It's not clear to me that there is a length issue on the C-E leg (with E being the point off the left side of the Y at C when that track hits the loop). This section of track is shown on one of the photos that Stewart posted - the 2nd of the group of 3. Looks about 3 feet to me (there is a siding to an industry in the photo that is not shown on the schematic which would also be inside the reversing loop but does not matter). Depending on the rolling stock, if there are no helpers on the back, no from-the-track lighting and nothing else on the non-locomotives side of the train that uses track power, then the only things that need to fit into the reversing loop are the locos on the front of the train. That's room enough for 5-6 locos, I would think and that's a pretty large consist. Looking at that photo again reinforces to me that C-E is where I would put the reversing loop. One more thing, putting it here is most likely do it and leave it alone forever.

Of course, again, what Jason suggests is a solution. I would just chose a different place for it.

[wcfn100]

Well that's a whole lot I couldn't assume or know in regards to how you plan on operating and what kinds of cars you're running.

Just isolating C-E will work as long as you never bridge both gaps electrically at the same time which basically means you can't have two (or more) wheels, even on the same truck, be electrically connected (even if they aren't being used for anything).   

Here's your layout in it's simplest electrical form where the red line would be C-E.



Jason