Lemon Locomotives

[VonRyan]

I have one brass locomotive, a B&O torpedo boat GP-9.  I forget who manufactured it.  After buying it, I swore that I would never buy brass, again.  I have stuck to that, even though I have seen some tempting pieces. 


To be sure, the detailing on brass is consistently good.  As you mention, the paint and lettering is inconsistent.  The real rub on these things is that the running quality is consistently bad.  Sometimes it is the exacting scale to which they are built which makes then unsuitable for mediocre, or, at times, even professional grade trackwork.  Sometimes it is simply a case of inferior mechanisms and/or motors.

You are much better off buying the plastic models and adding the details.  While see-through grillework is nice, the price that you pay in runnability is too great.  I do not know if any of the detail part manufacturers sell see through grilles in N, but if they do, you could buy the parts, cut out the grillework on the plastic locomotive and add the see-through.  As you are a SPF, you will have to add the Trainphone antennae.  Somebody does sell the brackets.  You can buy stiff wires or use something that Woodland Scenics sells for the Antennae.  IM does sell the late phase F-3s that PRR ran (unshrouded fans and F-7 type grillework but dynamic brake grids).   Kato F-3s are early phase.  I do not know if PRR had early phase F-3s.  Whatever the other PRR details, I have little doubt that you could either buy them, make them, or both. 

Buy the plastic and add the details.  To be sure, it take more time to get your locomotive into service, but consider where you are now.  You have few, if any, serviceable locomotives, I am guessing (from what  you have posted, that is).  If you have the funds, the thing to do might be to buy an A-B pair of  F-3s and a pair of GP-7s.  Run the undetailed F-3s while you change the number on one of the GP-7s and add the details to the pair.  When they are finished, run them, take the F-3s out of service and add the details to them.  Once you have two operating pairs, you can buy new power and add details at your leisure.

In this case, the brass was cheaper, and it was supposed to be way better. The dealer who sold it to me said that they had been remotored sagami can motors, which turned out to be a complete lie.

The issue with my Kato F3B is that originally the decoder wouldn't always respond, so I shimmed it at one end with some brass strip. Well after a good bit of traveling and running, it came to the point where the shims wouldn't work, even after repositioning and such. So I decided that I should just hardwire the decoder in. The process went well, but now it still won't run. So I gave up on it.

MUST. GET. MULTIMETER.

You'll just chase your tail with ANY wiring without one.

I'll get one if I inherit one. A good meter is expensive, and I've been told to stay away from the cheap ones.
$60 could get me a new decoder for my Kato F3B, plus pay to ship my Dapol 57xx back to the UK for warranty work.

[mmagliaro]

I see a bad pattern developing here.
Buying troublesome engines, and then spending more on those same engines to get them fixed, before you understand
how to fix them yourself, is frought with peril.   So is buying more engines without fixing the ones you already own.

My advice is to pull back and focus on one unit at a time until it is really fixed and running solid before you
spend money on any others.

In my view, you would be much better served buying a multimeter, and using that to diagnose the problem in your Kato F3,
( which is probably the most reliable engine you have and the one most worth fixing right now ) before you spend another dime on a new decoder for it. 

That will teach you to diagnose problems in the future, and will get your most solid engine into service.

You do not even know that the decoder is faulty. 

For example, when the F3 is sitting on the track with the shell off, if you had a multimeter, you could at least confirm that track power is reaching the decoder inputs.  Without knowing that, you can't tell what to fix or replace.  If power is reaching the decoder inputs,
you could then check the decoder outputs with the meter to see if it is indeed turning on and sending power to the motor. 
If that works, you could try running the motor on straight DC to make sure the motor is okay.

These things really must be done much more systematically.  That's the way to protect your limited budget (and your sanity!)
This advice is intended with the utmost sincerity.  I hope you take it that way.  I do not mean it to sound harsh or insulting.

[Dave V]

As others have eluded to, at some point you'll have to start getting comfortable with opening these things up.  During my M1 kitbash I had stuff everywhere!  Once you can reassemble N scale valve gear, you can do anything.  The first time you open one up it is intimidating, but remind yourself "it already doesn't work...if I fail, can it not work more?"

Find yourself a good reliable engine...  I've only ever had one Atlas lemon...an SD-35 that defies ever attempt I make to make it run.  Otherwise, I have a huge stable of Atlas and Kato engines that are as reliable as death and taxes...after some initial tinkering.  That way, when I reach frustration saturation with a more esoteric project, I have an A team I can fall back on to remind myself that I don't suck.

It happens to all of us...the trick is to get in there and do something about it by taking control.  You'll be glad you did because once you have that skill set, you don't have to worry about sending stuff back to the manufacturer...you can fix problems on the spot.  Elsewhere today I posted about not feeling compelled to do certain hobby tasks you may not enjoy, but the two exceptions I think for N scale especially are locomotive tinkering and very good trackwork.  Those are non-negotiable for maximum hobby enjoyment.

Good luck...you'll figure it out!

[randgust]

I've done a significant number of brass repairs myself and my conclusion has become that if you want that particular brass body shell that bad, the best thing to do is find a donor mechanism from another locomotive off of E-bay and put under it.   You can get the brass mechanisms to work, but the best brass diesel mechanism I've seen is still usually worse than the worst split-frame standard mechanism in used condition.   You get end-axle pickups instead of wheel wipers, flywheels, and replaceable motors and gears.   And putting in a decoder isn't quite so impossible. 

To me, the model of compromise to this point was the brass Hallmark SD26, using the Kato mechanism under it.  Which sold pretty well until the Atlas SD26 came out.

There's a certain amount of bragging rights to getting old brass diesels to run right, but that doesn't sound like your objective here.   I second the motion on getting your other Kato F3 to function, that's the best investment of time an money.   And KatoUSA has parts.

You don't need a good multimeter or the excuse of cost to wait for one.   You need to be able to measure resistance looking for shorts and open circuits which is just critical.   You need to have a rough idea of voltage.    You already have a good ammeter, and it's rather sensitive - your fingers sensing excessive heat.   I've had the same semi-primitive needle multimeter since about 1970 and it still does the job.   But when something stops dead and you can't tell between a short and open circuit, yeah, you're purely guessing.

[jnevis]

I'll get one if I inherit one. A good meter is expensive, and I've been told to stay away from the cheap ones.
$60 could get me a new decoder for my Kato F3B, plus pay to ship my Dapol 57xx back to the UK for warranty work.

Or you can spend $40-50 for a Radio Shack special DMM, or a Fluke from eBay, and not keep replacing the same decoder multiple times, since it may just not be making contact somewhere. 

[peteski]

Cody,
I'm surprised with your attitude (seems that you don.t really want to troubleshoot your models).  One of the big reasons I really enjoy this hobby is because it encompasses many different hobbies: You need to be a carpenter (to build a layout), electrician (to wire it up), mechanical tinkerer (to fix locomotives and scratch-build lots of cool operating models), a computer wiz (to deal with DCC), etc., etc.  I could go on, but you get the idea. It also involves some artistic abilities and a knack for observing your surroundings or even photos of the way things used  to be (for detailing and weathering the layout and rolling stock).

Anyways, I also recommend that you learn at least some basic electrical troubleshooting skills. You're young and yous should be able to learn at least the basics.  If you're willing that it.    A multimeter is an indispensable tool for any model railroader.  You are not running a research lab - an inexpensive meter is just fine.   You just need it to show you what you can't see with your eyes (flow of current, voltage, and continuity).  Even the cheapest digital meters are more than good enough for what you need.

Here is a $10 multimeter which I own and which is quite handy: http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G12847
One feature it is lacking is continuity buzzer (you need to watch the display to see if you have a short or an open in the circuit).
Or, for $17 you can have a meter with audible continuity function: http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G12941

Either of these will be excellent choice for out hobby. I own the $10 one (along with couple other meters).  Of course there are literally hundreds of other suitable multimeters which would also fit the bill.

[wazzou]

Watch Harbor Freight ads.  They give decent, inexpensive ones away periodically just for going in to purchase something minimal.

[Ngineer]

I do not know if any of the detail part manufacturers sell see through grilles in N, but if they do,

Plano Model Products does: http://www.planomodelproducts.com/

E & F intake grilles - in FARR style as well as EMD's horizontal style.

Javier

[victor miranda]

wow, von ryan...

whoever gave you the advice that an expensive DDM was the only option
has not done you a good turn. 

A cheap meter will tell you a whole lot more than no meter.
harbor freight has a ddm for 6 bucks... k +shipping.
http://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-multimeter-98025.html

you will face all the same issues no matter the scale.

I used a headlamp bulb to test for continuity in the O scale track and loco,
when I had that stuff.
At the time I did not know about volt ohm meters.
(you can't buy what you don't know about...)

you have been handed a lot of advice and I can only add in re-inforcement.

for some of what you want done you will need tools.
If you have a soldering iron, you will want solder and flux and a damp sponge.
to be confident that your work with the soldering iron is sound
you will find a multi-meter a valuable expansion to the soldering kit.

I can imagine you may feel like you are facing a cruel gang.
please accept that we are all explaining how we fix our problems
and what tools we use.

I also have a loco or two that I can't fix despite determined efforts.
(a b-mann lt mtn that derails)  It happens. 

lemons are frustrating. they cost money, time, and patience.

[LV LOU]

wow, von ryan...

whoever gave you the advice that an expensive DDM was the only option
has not done you a good turn. 

A cheap meter will tell you a whole lot more than no meter.
harbor freight has a ddm for 6 bucks... k +shipping.
http://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-multimeter-98025.html

you will face all the same issues no matter the scale.

I used a headlamp bulb to test for continuity in the O scale track and loco,
when I had that stuff.
At the time I did not know about volt ohm meters.
(you can't buy what you don't know about...)

you have been handed a lot of advice and I can only add in re-inforcement.

I have probably five meters,one is a Snap On/Fluke,I only use it when I need absolute accuracy,like testing motorcycle electronics that need to be in a specific,narrow range..I use one of these cheap Harbor Freight meters Victor posted the link to 95% of the time,tells me all I need..I like those cheap Harbor Freight VOM's so much,I built this to monitor the amp draw on my 4 mains..

[glakedylan]

not intended to divert the attention of the OP and the problem locomotives
but...
do you have any information about the seller? from a receipt, credit card charge, business card?
sounds to me like the Chantilly folks would want to know about such a seller at their event
or, if it was an honest mistake (he being informed incorrectly about the locmotives?) contact seller
for refund/return?
wishing you the best outcome
agreeing with the suggestions already posted...they seem deep and wide in wisdom!

kindest regards
Gary

[Chris333]

I have probably five meters,one is a Snap On/Fluke,I only use it when I need absolute accuracy,like testing motorcycle electronics that need to be in a specific,narrow range..I use one of these cheap Harbor Freight meters Victor posted the link to 95% of the time,tells me all I need..I like those cheap Harbor Freight VOM's so much,I built this to monitor the amp draw on my 4 mains..

I didn't think you could get amp draw out of those cheap meters. I've tried before with mine and couldn't figure it out...

[glakedylan]

Cody
just remembering that I have an electrical checking system
got it a long time ago but I am pretty sure it is a good one
used to use it with auto mechanical stuff, never thought of using it in MRing
if I can locate it, which is a good possibility, be glad to lend it to you
knowing that you live fairly locally (i'm in the Philly area)
let me know if you are interest before I start searching storage
sincerely
Gary

[peteski]

I didn't think you could get amp draw out of those cheap meters. I've tried before with mine and couldn't figure it out...

Most multimeters (both cheap and expensive) have 2 sets of current ranges. The low one is usually up to 200mA and the high one is usually 10 or 20A.  There is a separate high current banana jack (socket) for the positive lead.

[nstars]

We have quite some experience with brass locomotives and especially the older ones need some (or a lot of) tinkering to get them running reliable. In a lot of cases it is just poor design on part of the mechanism which causes a lot of problems. The Key H10 is a good example of an in essence good locomotive let down by poor pick up and an unreliable drawbar design. The H9's and H10 we own now run really well after the adjustments we made.

Another type of brass locomotive with poor designs are the old Samhongsa diesels. In essence they can run really well, but they are let down by gears which tend to split and by a pick up system which acts like a (very powerfull) brake. The gears can be replaced by NWSL gears and the pick up needs some tinkering. The person who designed them with 2 steel (!!) wipers sets per truck should be punished (I did restrain myself ). First of all, the steel wipers are way too stiff and the stupidity is the engines only needs one per truck! The other 'pole' is already taken care by the truck chassis. It is really amazing to see the improvement in running quality after removing per truck one wiper and some adjustments to the other wiper.

Marc