Why are DCC systems so crappy?

[daniel_leavitt2000]

With the Boston Line starting to move forward again, I started looking at track, dcc and computer systems as this will probably be my next major purchase.

Track will be Atlas C55 (if the flex ever becomes available again) with ME C40 for branches and sidings.

When I started looking at DCC systems, I was a bit horrified. The handheld throttles look like they were all built out of old calculator parts. Nothing is ergonomic. Everything has a plethora of buttons and quite frankly; it just looks bad.

The one system I like is the ESU moble system:
http://www.esu.eu/en/products/digital-control/mobile-control-ii/

I wish there was a good DCC program for cell phones. It seems natural to use that as a cordless throttle. Even on my wife's iPhone, I can't find anything halfway decent.

Any ideas?

[Baronjutter]

Good design costs money, big money.  Model trains and dcc just isn't big enough to attract the sort of technology investments needed

[peteski]

Tell us how you really feel Daniel - don't hold it back. 

You must have been looking at the Digitrax throttles - they to me seem the ones which look like they recycled old calculator parts.  NEC system isn't bad - at least it looks like it was designed with a real purpose in mind.  I also like the newest CVP EasyDCC wireless throttles. They actually have a real X-Y addressable display instead of the old fashion segmented displays.  But none of the systems seem very ergonomically designed (at least the way I perceive your question).  Maybe some of the esoteric European systems might fit the bill?

I have played with a wireless throttle for iPhone and it was not bad.  Sine some throttle apps are based oin JMRI, you could design your own (to make them to whatever you think is ergonomic).   

[Mike C]

  I have found that the NCE system is very easy to use . Mike

[conrail98]

The EngineDriver (used in conjunction with JMRI) app for Android is by far the best throttle I've ever used, DCC manufacturer's or otherwise. Hopefully the WiiThrottle catches up to it soon,

Phil

[daniel_leavitt2000]

The new NCE wireless throttles have a full display? We used them at the club, but they only had the numeric readouts.

As a dispatcher, I am very picky about how to control and dispatch trains. Some trains need to be fully automated (commuter rail, Amtrak, subways) with the option of manual control. Others need full manual control being run from the tower (Boston, Framingham or Worcester) or by wireless throttle.

The towers need full tracking and map screens one screen, and a list of active trains plus controls on a second screen. All turnouts need to be controlled by both the towers and wireless throttles.

I'm still trying to figure out how I would label the turnouts.

[peteski]

The wireless NCE ProCab is identical to the standard full-feature ProCab.  Basically the same unit but with radio capability.


The CVP EasyDCC newest wireless cab has a rather nice fully addressable X-Y addressable display.  It doesn't do any graphics, but the display is nicer than the standard multi-segment or dot-matrix-like alphanumeric displays used in other cabs.  The display looks a bit better than the simulated display in this photo.



Still, nowhere near the smart-phone's display resolution and the small number of buttons doesn't help in making it intuitive. NCE is better in ease of operation.

I have a feeling that to get what you want you will have to roll your own.  Your requirements are bit over the top (for the contemporary DCC systems). Like I said, a custom designed WiFi throttle app might give you what you're looking for. If you can't roll your won, maybe have someone design one for you for a fee (or for free, if you can befriend a programmer). 

[robert3985]

Oh Yeah!  Beautifully simple designs, can be read well in dim lit layout rooms, both fit exceptionally well in operator's hands.  Controls come easily to hand without having to look during normal operation. Powerful but easy to use Super Throttle, and simple, easy to use Utility throttle.  Use several of both on my portable layout.  Wouldn't have any other system since no other fits my requirements nor my hand so nicely.

[peteski]

Yes Bob, these photos confirm that Digitrax throttles look like they were made using old calculator parts.  I have to agree with Daniel on that.

[reinhardtjh]

Yes Bob, these photos confirm that Digitrax throttles look like they were made using old calculator parts.  I have to agree with Daniel on that.

They're OEM cases with a custom insert for the face.  http://www.serpac.com/m-series.aspx




Still not the prettiest things around but then I find when I'm using them I'm not really looking at them that often.  Not even the DT40x with the display.

I've operated on 5 layouts in my area, 3 of them nearly monthly for 2 years.  Two of those are Digitrax and one is Lenz.  Of the other two one is Digitrax and the other was NCE.  I say was because I only got to run on it once in 2011 before the guy packed it all in and sold off his stuff.  It was too bad because he had a nice Southern based N scale layout.

The point being... It's all in what you get used to.  I run on Digitrax often enough that I don't notice any problems.  It just works.  Same with the Lenz.  The focus of these layouts is operations and switching rather than a roundy-round so you use the throttle for more than just speeding up and slowing down.  In addition, two have some sound locomotives so you have to use the bell and horn quite often as well.  My one experience with NCE was okay, I don't remember any issues there either.  It could just be me.  I work with computers and I have to deal with everything from the Mac OS and Windows GUI to Solaris and even still OpenVMS command line.  You adapt and do what it takes to get things done.  After a while it's all second nature.

That said, pretty much the whole DCC industry is still in the stone ages.  Using CV's (upwards of 1000 of them for ESU's LokSound 4.0 decoders) is not even equivalent to the old DOS style ini files for configuration.  Someone needs to do an Apple-style Human Interfaces design guide reboot for DCC.  Of course, then the old school guys would claim that DCC had been "dumbed down" for the masses. 

[peteski]

The point being... It's all in what you get used to.  I run on Digitrax often enough that I don't notice any problems.  It just works.  Same with the Lenz.  The focus of these layouts is operations and switching rather than a roundy-round so you use the throttle for more than just speeding up and slowing down.  In addition, two have some sound locomotives so you have to use the bell and horn quite often as well.  My one experience with NCE was okay, I don't remember any issues there either.  It could just be me.  I work with computers and I have to deal with everything from the Mac OS and Windows GUI to Solaris and even still OpenVMS command line.  You adapt and do what it takes to get things done.  After a while it's all second nature.

I also work in computers and I find Digitrax throttles, manuals, and their entire programming scheme to be very poorly executed.  I have operated several DCC systems and I have never gotten used to Digitrax.  I do realize that it is probably the most feature-rich system out there, but I still don't like it.  Call me a Digitrax-hater if you want.  Yes, we can adapt - but why should we?  If I really needed some of Digitrax's features I might begrudgingly adapt, but otherwise will not own a Digitrax DCC system.

[wm3798]

I know the Eric and John use Digitrax with JMRI, and there is an app that allows smart phones to work as throttles.  From what I understand, it eats battery power pretty quickly, but it can be done.  Dig a little deeper.

Lee

[reinhardtjh]

I know the Eric and John use Digitrax with JMRI, and there is an app that allows smart phones to work as throttles.  From what I understand, it eats battery power pretty quickly, but it can be done.  Dig a little deeper.

Lee

JMRI WiFi Throttle --> http://jmri.sourceforge.net/help/en/package/jmri/jmrit/withrottle/UserInterface.shtml

Engine Driver for Android --> http://enginedriver.rrclubs.org/ and https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=jmri.enginedriver&hl=en

WIThrottle for iOS --> http://www.withrottle.com/WiThrottle/Home.html

At the Lenz layout the guy has the WiFi throttle setup with JMRI and we use our phones sometimes.  His WiFi internet if flakey so it's a hassle sometimes, but when it works it works well. 

[robert3985]

A-10's aren't the best looking aircraft around either, but if I were Air Force, I'd be honored to fly the Warthog.

Digitrax....the Warthog of the DCC world!

That said, I agree with Peteski and many others that Digitrax manuals are the worst written POS technical documents I've ever had the experience to read.  However, it didn't take me and my grown youngest son long to realize that if you've got a question about Digitrax (or DCC for that matter) there are plenty of Digitrax groups online where the answers can be promptly found.  We were able to do everything we needed to do with about a week's worth of evenings and one show under our belts.  We never encountered a problem that was more than a half hour's worth of research on the internet away from being solved, with most answers coming more readily to hand.

One thing for certain, even if the claims that Digitrax throttles look like recycled old calculator parts (as opposed to recycled old phone and TV remote parts), they are "home" to my hand now, and get the job done well, without having to think about it.

Of course, my friends who operate their layouts with NCE or Lenz say the same thing.  It's almost all about what you get used to, and that wasn't a problem with Digitrax for me, my son or the group who operates my layout at shows.  It's also not a problem for lots of other model railroaders out there who use Digitrax DCC systems.

As opposed to Peteski, I do not "hate" the other systems...well...maybe MRC...I simply say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and Digitrax is about as beautiful as DCC is going to get for me from a system standpoint, and fulfills all of my DCC wishes.

[peteski]

A-10's aren't the best looking aircraft around either, but if I were Air Force, I'd be honored to fly the Warthog.
Digitrax....the Warthog of the DCC world!

I like that comparison! 

That said, I agree with Peteski and many others that Digitrax manuals are the worst written POS technical documents I've ever had the experience to read.  However, it didn't take me and my grown youngest son long to realize that if you've got a question about Digitrax (or DCC for that matter) there are plenty of Digitrax groups online where the answers can be promptly found.  We were able to do everything we needed to do with about a week's worth of evenings and one show under our belts.  We never encountered a problem that was more than a half hour's worth of research on the internet away from being solved, with most answers coming more readily to hand.

I agree that in this computer-connected world (where there are online groups/forums dedicated to supporting them) the need for good manual is not as important anymore, but IMO there still is no excuse for a manufacturer of what I think ti the most popular DCD system not producing a better manual.  Complacency is not a good excuse. 

To me another example of their complacency are their mobile decoders.  While other manufacturers embraced LED technology long time ago (with their LED-friendly lighting effects), Digitrax decoders did not really support LED based lighting FX until the 6th generation of decoders which was introduced very recently.  (I still have not tested them to see how well they handle LED FX).  They finally realized that the incandescent bulbs are an anachronism - even the home lighting bulbs are being phased out.

As opposed to Peteski, I do not "hate" the other systems...well...maybe MRC...I simply say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and Digitrax is about as beautiful as DCC is going to get for me from a system standpoint, and fulfills all of my DCC wishes.

"Hate" might be a bit fo a strong word, but this is an online forum where over-exaggeration is allowed.    I would not consider owning or recommending  a Digitrax system unless there was a need for some feature not offered by any of their competitors.