Author Topic: DZ123 in a KATO SD45 ( old )  (Read 2608 times)

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trainforfun

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DZ123 in a KATO SD45 ( old )
« on: October 05, 2013, 12:00:01 PM »
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I just finished a nice installation , everything works fine , front LED , rear LED , motor on DC even work !
But not on DCC , dead , nothing move ...
I am amaze that it work on DC with a nine volt battery , the decoder works fine to send the power to the motor in that case but not on DCC ....
I even tried to put it back to factory settings without any result .

Could it be a "kaput" decoder ?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 12:10:21 PM by trainforfun »
Thanks ,
Louis



peteski

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Re: DZ123 in a KATO SD45 ( old )
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2013, 04:40:22 PM »
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Kaput?  Possible, but highly unlikely.  If the motor and headlights work in DC that means that the microcontroller (the decoders brain) and the motor and LED driving components are working ok.  That is pretty much 99% of the decoder's circuitry.

What DCC system are you using?  Can you write or read any CVs on the programming track?
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trainforfun

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Re: DZ123 in a KATO SD45 ( old )
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2013, 04:56:32 PM »
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I use decoder pro to program all my decoders . I tried to put back factory settings , no success . I checked if the momentum did not have a too high value and put back 0 for acceleration and decelaration . Funny that "decoder pro" find a load on the programming track and the decoder does not send any power to the motor .
The motor is ok and wire are ok to it also since it works on DC ...
I will reopen it just in case one of the motor brush cap is touching one side of the half frames , maybe ...
Thanks ,
Louis



peteski

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Re: DZ123 in a KATO SD45 ( old )
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2013, 09:54:10 PM »
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DecoderPro is just a user interface to a DCC system.  Which DCC system (or interface) are you using?  Sounds like you are able to read the CV values from the decoder and modify them. Correct?

Are you doing the programming on the main or on programming track (I assume on programming track, since you don't know the locos address)?

No matter which system you are using, try using it directly to program the decoder (do not use DecoderPro).

Write value of 8 into CV8 (that is the factory reset which you probable already tried through DecoderPro).  Then try running it (and/or turning the headlights onor off) on shoer address 03.

Write the following  values into CVs and verify that those values were actually written:

CV19 = 0
CV29 = 6
CV1 = 3

Now try run and to control headlights using short address 03. Can you either control the headlights or the motor?  Place another (known working) locomotive, addressed for short address 03 alongside of the non-working loco to make sure that address 03 control packets are being sent through the rails.
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trainforfun

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Re: DZ123 in a KATO SD45 ( old )
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2013, 10:37:24 PM »
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DecoderPro is just a user interface to a DCC system.  Which DCC system (or interface) are you using?  Digitrax DB 150 and DCS 100 with many DT400 and 402 forgot what they are calling it Super Chief or ...Sounds like you are able to read the CV values from the decoder and modify them. Correct? Yes I said I could put back factory settings

Are you doing the programming on the main or on programming track (I assume on programming track, since you don't know the locos address)?Programming track and I know the loco address since the lights work front and rear on demandNo matter which system you are using, try using it directly to program the decoder (do not use DecoderPro). The only thing I change with my DT400 is the loco address , then all CV are change using Decoder Pro, I did 3 other locos this afternoon doing so , only this one is "doomed" it all started on address 03 , factory condition then I changed to cab number , all the others were ok

Write value of 8 into CV8 (that is the factory reset which you probable already tried through DecoderPro).  Then try running it (and/or turning the headlights onor off) on shoer address 03. That's what I did 03 and every other addresses I tried , the headlights are still operating fine , no motor respond but still working fine on pure DC ...

But I should add I discovered this morning it's working ( motor and lights ) on address 00 like a loco without a decoder
Write the following  values into CVs and verify that those values were actually written:

CV19 = 0
CV29 = 6
CV1 = 3

Will try to reprogram like that tomorrow

Now try run and to control headlights using short address 03. Can you either control the headlights or the motor?  Place another (known working) locomotive, addressed for short address 03 alongside of the non-working loco to make sure that address 03 control packets are being sent through the rails.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 11:33:47 AM by trainforfun »
Thanks ,
Louis



peteski

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Re: DZ123 in a KATO SD45 ( old )
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2013, 08:13:13 PM »
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Quote
But I should add I discovered this morning it's working ( motor and lights ) on address 00 like a loco without a decoder

Hmmmm.  Interesting... I never tried to run a decoder-equipped loco (with analog mode enabled) using the pseudo-DC address 00.  My currrent DCC system is not capable of doing this, so I can't try it.

If you set CV29=2 (disable analog mode) then the loco should no longer run on address 00, or even on straight DC power.
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jagged ben

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Re: DZ123 in a KATO SD45 ( old )
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2013, 11:35:08 PM »
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I will reopen it just in case one of the motor brush cap is touching one side of the half frames , maybe ...

I would say with about 90% certainty that this is the problem.  A short between a motor lead and the correct side of the frame won't cause a problem in DC.  It just becomes a parallel path for the current, which may also flow or return through the decoder.  The problem only manifests itself in DCC.


trainforfun

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Re: DZ123 in a KATO SD45 ( old )
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2013, 12:10:15 PM »
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I think my system is on fault . I changed the decoder to find out the new one act exactly like the other ...
While fooling around with my DCC system with the programmation of this decoder I accidently renamed all my locos on the layout to address "03" , good thing it didn't changed the speed table of any loco ...
There was about 80 locos in different staging , most of them in consist of 2 to 4 locos .
The problem is to retreive some of the trains deep in the helix or on the last rack of the staging yard ...
I made a "retreiver consist" made of 6 powerfull 6 axles locos , the sets was able to pull 3 dead locos and a train of 40 cars uphill in the helix at almost 2% slope !!
I still cannot figure what to do to bring my system at 100 % ...
Thanks ,
Louis



peteski

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Re: DZ123 in a KATO SD45 ( old )
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2013, 04:28:43 PM »
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This is one of the negatives of using DCC: if you start fooling around with programming, you can easily do just what you did.

I don't remember the details but I think that if you send main track programming instructions to address 0 then you are sending that command to all the models with decoders on the track.  From what I can see, there is no easy way to magically restore things to normal.  You need to reprogram each locomotive separately (hopefully on the programming track).  Programming on main should really only be used to change things like motor control parameters (things that need to be tuned dynamically while you are trying to speed match or tune a running locomotive).

Since you do use DecoderPro, if you saved the decoder settings for your locomotives, your job of reprogramming all of them will be much easier than doing it from scratch.
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trainforfun

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Re: DZ123 in a KATO SD45 ( old )
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2013, 07:56:16 PM »
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This is one of the negatives of using DCC: if you start fooling around with programming, you can easily do just what you did.

I don't remember the details but I think that if you send main track programming instructions to address 0 then you are sending that command to all the models with decoders on the track.  From what I can see, there is no easy way to magically restore things to normal.  You need to reprogram each locomotive separately (hopefully on the programming track).  Programming on main should really only be used to change things like motor control parameters (things that need to be tuned dynamically while you are trying to speed match or tune a running locomotive).

Since you do use DecoderPro, if you saved the decoder settings for your locomotives, your job of reprogramming all of them will be much easier than doing it from scratch.

Not that bad , already done at 98% , only the road number had to be put back . All the speed tables were magically saved in units !!! I also had to reconsist the locos in charge of long trains .

Still to do is to find what's the problem with the doomed unit . Or maybe it's a doomed address too ...
Thanks ,
Louis



mmyers

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Re: DZ123 in a KATO SD45 ( old )
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2013, 11:27:18 PM »
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You were probably programming on the main to address 00. That's the broadcast address that all NMRA compliant decoders must respond to. They won't actually run when address 00 is selected on a throttle. That's zero stretching and no commands are actually being put in the rails to the 00 address.
Decoders will respond to commands sent to address 00 including programming commands. That's how a global stop is sent to the layout.

trainforfun

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Re: DZ123 in a KATO SD45 ( old )
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2013, 12:58:39 PM »
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You were probably programming on the main to address 00. That's the broadcast address that all NMRA compliant decoders must respond to. They won't actually run when address 00 is selected on a throttle. That's zero stretching and no commands are actually being put in the rails to the 00 address.
Decoders will respond to commands sent to address 00 including programming commands. That's how a global stop is sent to the layout.

There is still about 6 locos to reprogram I will try to see on which address they are .
Thanks ,
Louis



peteski

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Re: DZ123 in a KATO SD45 ( old )
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2013, 03:10:15 PM »
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There is still about 6 locos to reprogram I will try to see on which address they are .

What we are trying to say is that if you send programming commands on the main track to address 00, that is a special broadcast address, and the programming command will be accepted by all the locomotives sitting on the track on your layout.  By doing that you are programming all the locos at the same time.  So, whatever address you programmed at the time all your locomotives got messed up, that should be the same address programmed into *all* the locomotives.
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trainforfun

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Re: DZ123 in a KATO SD45 ( old )
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2013, 03:57:37 PM »
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What we are trying to say is that if you send programming commands on the main track to address 00, that is a special broadcast address, and the programming command will be accepted by all the locomotives sitting on the track on your layout.  By doing that you are programming all the locos at the same time.  So, whatever address you programmed at the time all your locomotives got messed up, that should be the same address programmed into *all* the locomotives.

Ok I get it .
Thanks ,
Louis



trainforfun

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Re: DZ123 in a KATO SD45 ( old )
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2013, 09:54:53 AM »
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I would say with about 90% certainty that this is the problem.  A short between a motor lead and the correct side of the frame won't cause a problem in DC.  It just becomes a parallel path for the current, which may also flow or return through the decoder.  The problem only manifests itself in DCC.

Update : :facepalm: :oops: :o
This is a first for me after many , many DCC conversion .  ( over 150 ... )
The interior of the 2 half frames body have some angular very sharp corner . Both motor wires were touching their respective half frames . I changed my hobby glass and they are not strong enough , I missed that ...
The good news is the decoder is not toasted !!!
I installed a lot more Kapton tape , grinded these angular corners , and everything works fine !!!!!!
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 09:56:28 AM by trainforfun »
Thanks ,
Louis