decals without gloss

[FEC Railway]

unfortunately, with the nearest hobby shop north of Atlanta my option is the local hobby town  or wait a few days and order 1 bottle online...

[sizemore]

Are you saying you've applied decals over totally flat finishes? Would love to see the results.

I actually prefer flat paint. Decals while thin are still the height of N scale cardboard and the film can be seen and create a layer in the paint on final clear coat. Using flat gives better adhesion to the decal and makes the film hide better. Get a silver spot, prick it with a pin and hit it with Micro Sol till its gone. Yes gloss is better to decal on, but the problem is the model, by that I mean, if you're following the old school standards of gloss, decal, flat clear, then gloss you have 4 layers of paint and that's to much paint. Scott's right on point, less paint the better.

The problem the gloss black on those Dash-2-Moderns is that the paint was way to thick, pressure to high, and only passing enough to coat without coating to a gel. The paint was drying by the time it hit the model.

Gloss paint is typically a 1 part thinning agent to 3 parts paint minimum, lower pressure 20lbs or so, and slow long passes. I find when painting a gloss it should look wet, and appear a hair to heavy on the model. When it dries those details will pop back out again.

The S.

[FEC Railway]

I might need to re-learn how to turn the pressure down on my el-cheapo harbor freight compressor =\

[LV LOU]

Are you saying you've applied decals over totally flat finishes? Would love to see the results.

This certainly isn't the best paint job I've ever done,but the only pic I have at the moment of a good example of a decal job done with no gloss coat...I use nothing but Floquil or Scalecoat.This is Floquil Tuscan,no gloss whatsoever under the decals,only flat finish over the finished product.Doesn't get much worse than this,and that huge "LEHIGH VALLEY" is one piece..I also painted the Tuscan LV C628,once again,as bad as it could get without silvering..

[LV LOU]

Here's where I'm at -

I think I may have put too light a coat and held the brush too far the first time...created a less than glossy surface as a result...thoughts?

 FEC,That paint is way too dry.If you decal over that,you'll have nothing but problems.One thing I'll tell you.Solvent based paint is MUCH easier for inexperienced painter.Although it's not a "good" thing to thin solvent based paint too much,you can't physically thin it too much.If you thin water base too much,it will run right off.That never happens with solvent base,pure thinner will still flow out.Te only thing I say to always do is,make sure you put a coat of primer under it.I use the cheapest fast dry spray primer you can get at Walmart,ETC.
  If you really want to use water base,do yourself a favor.Round up a bunch of crap boxcars,old models,whatever,and find some latex paint you have in your garage,and PRACTICE..You'll figure out how it flows,how much air to use,how much water to add,ETC,and do it on the cheap,since you're using paint that costs 10 bucks a quart,not 50 cents a drop.And guess what? If you can make house paint flow on half decent,you're gonna be a pro when you go to real model paint,since it's much better stuff!!! I used solvent based paint for years on everything,I painted hundreds of RC cars with it.One day,I looked at the new "FASCOLOR" RC paints,the colors were just way to nice to pass them up..I went GOOFY trying to learn how to spray water based colors,I sat there for three hours with an old body,and hose.I tried different mixes,air pressure,ETC,until I was happy.Now,I'm thrilled with the stuff,love the colors.I even went to the point of experimenting,I actuall mix my paint with alcohol to get it to dry instantly,since I paint multiple colors on the cars..By the way,don't try that,you'll be sorry,LOL!!!

[sdodge]

I never use any kind of gloss clear UNDER the decal. 

I don't either and I have applied 100's of decals on all types of surfaces. If the decal does not sit right apply 1 or even 2 extra applications of Microsol. The overspray, whatever it is, should finish the job.

[wcfn100]

  People always insist you have to decal over gloss paint but that just simply isn't true.

But  I can clearly see the decal lines on that model.

This certainly isn't the best paint job I've ever done,but the only pic I have at the moment of a good example of a decal job done with no gloss coat..

That's got to be one of the heavier coats of paint I've seen on a model.  Does that lend itself to working a decal in with micro sol/set?

Jason

[peteski]

IMO, decal silvering depends on a combination of many factors.  I think that factors that make a difference are: how much decal adhesive remains under the decal film, the thickness and flexibility of the decal film and the decal setting solution used are some of the factors.

Many years ago I build a 1:48 scale model of the SR-71 Blackbird. This was long before I started reading any of the modeling magazines, so I was unaware of the possible issues with decals applied over flat paint. It was painted with a spray can of Testors flat black. I then applied the kit's decals over flat and I only got silvering in few spots and only on couple of the decals.  I then brush-painted Dullcote just over the decals to dull their finish.

So yes, it is possible to successfully apply some decals over some flat finish paints but why take a chance?   Applying decals over non-flat paint gives more consistent results.  I also agree that the fewer layers of paint, the better (as each layer adds thickness and hides the minute details of N scale models).  That is exactly the reason I use paints like Accupaint or TrueColor paint. In majority of cases they can be applied directly over plastic (no primer) and they have a glossy sheen perfect for decals.  They also dry to a very thin layer.  For a finish coat I apply a satin-finish mixture of Glosscoat and Dullcoat thinned with lacquer thinner. Again, that finish dries to a very thin layer and it blends the clear decal film into the surrounding paint.

[LV LOU]

But  I can clearly see the decal lines on that model.

That's got to be one of the heavier coats of paint I've seen on a model.  Does that lend itself to working a decal in with micro sol/set?

Jason

You can see the decal lines on the model? Did we go and get our magnifying glass? Even if the lines are visible,and I ain't seeing them,that has nothing to do with silvering,and if anything,clear gloss under decals make hiding the lines more difficult....And as for that C420,once again,only posted to show there's no silvering under the decals,nothing to do with the paint.That looks horrible because I started with a crappy shell,Never should have built it,and,it's 20 years old..Here's stuff way more representative of my work,but,you can't really see the decals..these both have 2 matching B units..

[wcfn100]

and if anything,clear gloss under decals make hiding the lines more difficult.

I disagree.

Jason

[LV LOU]

I disagree.

Jason

Have you ever actually tried not using gloss? I've used gloss,I absolutely hate it.To me ,the decals seem to just lay on top of it.I can make decals melt right into Floquil,barely even needs dullcoat..

[Scott Lupia]

I sometimes wonder why I even bother to post responses here on this forum.  The original question was about applying decals over gloss and a comment was made that you absolutely have to do so.  A few people indicated that you don't have to.  Somebody asked for photos of that.  Photos were provided.  Now photos are criticized for the appearance of decal film and the alleged thickness of paint.  I could care less what anybody else does with their models.  I am not going to tell you that your method is wrong and that your model is bad.  If you ask what to do, I will tell you what I do.  If you want to criticize my method, my work and my photos that is your choice but does it really add anything of value to the discussion?  Did you show any of us any of your work since it is obviously perfect and far superior to anything that anybody else has posted?   Did your critique of my work help the original poster figure out what he is having a hard time with?  No to all of the above. 

And for the record, this U-boat does not have decal film visible.  The visible decal film that was criticized on the NW2 was due to drybrushing the model to fade the paint slightly.  Drybrushing highlights raised surfaces such as decal film regardless of whether or not gloss paint is below the decal film. 

Scott Lupia

[bbussey]

This model is painted in Polly Scale's water-based paints and has the following paint layers;

SP paint
Clear Gloss or Satin finish (can't remember, either works)
Decals
Clear Gloss or Satin finish (doing this before applying the flat finish completely hides decal film shadowing)
Flat Finish
weathering (chalks)

I don't feel that I lost any relief detail at all with these paint layers....but I suppose it easily could if the coats were thicker than what I typically apply.

Technically (since the thread has devolved into technicalities) any additional layers of paint contribute to loss of detail, no matter how thin.

Painting over flat paint is not an issue if the decal is properly treated with a setting solution.  I've had decal edges silver that were applied over gloss or satin paint because I didn't treat the decal enough or finish the model properly.  Once the decal is set properly, the hiding of the decal film is entirely due to the final clear overcoat of choice.

[DKS]

I disagree.

Jason

Disagree all you want, but it doesn't carry much cred without some examples of your results.

Painting over flat paint is not an issue if the decal is properly treated with a setting solution.  I've had decal edges silver that were applied over gloss or satin paint because I didn't treat the decal enough or finish the model properly.

+1. Properly treating the decal is the key, IMO. This is a custom decal (notorious for being harder to work with than typical commercial decals) applied over flat paint. After a liberal application of Micro-Sol, it was sealed with clear flat finish. Decal is crappy, edges may be slightly visible, but there is no silvering.

Decals MUST have a glossy finish to properly adhere to without getting the dreaded "silvering" effect under the decal film...

I would say there is ample evidence this is not a requirement.

[sizemore]

I might need to re-learn how to turn the pressure down on my el-cheapo harbor freight compressor =\

Get a large mason jar and fill it with Scale-Coat plastic safe paint remover. Grab some old shells and give it a whirl. I have dipped the same tender shell about three times already, experimenting with some Tamiya black semi-gloss dialing in the best method for this small stuff. If at first you dont succeed, try and try again.

The S.