Styrosplines

[kelticsylk]

Although this is a very interesting thread, splined subroadbed is nothing new.  There are all kinds of materials to make it from, and all of my subroadbed (except in yard and large industrial areas) is splined 1/4" & 1/8" Masonite cut into 1" splines.

I've been doing this now going on 20 years and several of my model railroad cohorts here in Utah and elsewhere also utilize splined Masonite in both N and HO.

Like DKS, I worry about the strength of Styrofoam splined subroadbed and the sag photos you've posted clearly indicate it's not very rigid (to say the least).  Yup, it'd help to put something with more structural strength on the outsides and in the middle, but the Styrofoam is not really great as a structural element in anything designed to be stable....which is what model railroad subroadbed is supposed to be.

Another help would be to increase the density of your risers.  Some of the spans I'm looking at look waaaaaay too long.  I'd be afraid that the splined roadbed over the years would start to sag on its own between some of your longer spans.

My splined Masonite subroadbed, glued together with either yellow hot glue, or yellow carpenter's glue will support me (245 lbs), balancing with one foot in the middle of a 12" span.  Deflection is about 1/16" to 3/32".

It's been a while since I bought a 4X8 sheet of anything other than 2" Styrofoam, but I'm guessing that 1/8" tempered Masonite is comparable or less than an equivalent sheet of 1" foam price-wise, so...it might be cheaper than foam.

One thing's for certain...it's a helluva lot stronger, and it also deadens engine and track noise more than any other material I've ever used for subroadbed.

But....I'm a real proponent for building benchwork and subroadbed out of substantial materials, like plywood, premium pine, redwood, and Masonite...gluing and screwing everything together. You may not be.

Robert,
I know it's nothing new. I've seen it used in a number of articles since the late fifties or so. The material may be the only thing that is different.

The gridwork of the frame is not necessarily the support for the roadbed. The supports are 12" apart. If the grid is too wide for that I place a 2" x 4" "span so I can maintain the spacing. The actuall supports are made of hardwood and are adjustable...


I don't think we have to overbuild our layouts anymore than we need to overbuild a car. Yes, back in the day we made things like engine blocks that would withstand a nuclear blast, but they were VERY heavy. The additional weight of all that overkill wasted a LOT of fuel. Only time will actually tell but I'm betting anything that can support my grandchildren can support an N scale model railroad and do so for a number of years. My little Mazda sedan is what some would call "overengineered" and presently has 240.000 miles on the odometer. That's the distance between earth and the moon. Not too shabby for something that's light in construction.

I had used a wooden spline construction on an earlier version of the All East, but it required a LOT of machine work to create. Ripping masonite (or any other spline material) on a table saw isn't always an alternative for folks out there.

I also feel that expensive cabinet grade materials are not a requirement for a model railroad. I use them but only if I'm building kitchen cabinets or furniture. Yes, bargain basement framing wood is bad, but for a few pennies more you can buy the higher grade pine and actually get something that doesn't resemble a barrel stave. The entire project is about creating a model railroad that is less expensive and requires less skill. We can save our money and artistic abilities for the trains, structures and scenery.

The simple 2" x 4" frame that supports the Allegheny Eastern was a design requirement. The garage serves as a storage area for my wife. I had to create a structure that left a lot of vacant space underneath and the typical "L" girder construction was not gonna provide that.

I do appreciate that sturdy construction is desirable. At the same time it is expensive, labor intensive and requires a certain level of skill to create. I wanted to stay within certain constraints. With all this experimentation, I know I have spent more than I planned, but that is part of the learning experience and I enjoy the learning. Rather than build a series of layouts, I have thrown all that effort in to the All East, redesigning and improving as I go. I started in 2007 or 2008. The layout today looks nothing like the original design in any way. The only things that stayed the same are many of 2x4s but only because I've recycled some of them for various projects over decades. A very long time ago a few of them were part of a three story bunkbed for my three daughters

[kelticsylk]

IMHO, wood presents it's own share of issues.  When I build my final dream layout this will be my method as well.  This would work really well for splined modules too.  Ever lighter materials will make transporting them easier and easier.  The added rigidity of the strips puts it over the top.

Frank, have you done any delamiation testing?  If you put a drywall screw through the foam into the strips, it should never delaminate and would totally eliminate any clamping.  The screws give the screw something to bite into (and one of the reasons I thought of using luaun).

The black thingies in the photos are drywall srews. I use them as cheap but effective clamps by pushing them through the foam. I hadn't thought of this until you mentioned it, but now I will have to screw them in place because of the hard splines. That can only make the glued mass stronger and hedge against "delamination". I might have to watch that I don't over tighten them. I'll find out when I start the "for real" construction.

As for testing for delamination I've worked with the foam for awhile now. Although I use tacky glue as opposed to yellow or wood glue the stuff holds fast. The splines don't sepearate. Instead they snap as if they were one piece. The trick is a process I call smegging. When I put two splines together I work the individual splines back and forth and up and down to make sure the glue covers the entire joint.

[kelticsylk]

To address some of the concerns here and my own curioosity I performed a test with 65 or pounds on the scale. Spline is clamped together and clamped to supports on 12" centers...


Spline with 65 pounds Aluminum angle for reference


Spline after 65 pounds was removed


Maybe about 1/16" of deflection?

I think we're good to go.

[DKS]

Not to be the contrarian, but your weigh scale almost completely spans the distance between the two wooden supports. Thus it's not applying much pressure at all to the spline's weakest point--rather, it is bridging across it.

[Scottl]

I find this debate about wood vs foam to be completely pointless.  The foam is very rigid in this application and clearly suitable as he has used it.  Live and let live.

[DKS]

I find this debate about wood vs foam to be completely pointless.  The foam is very rigid in this application and clearly suitable as he has used it.  Live and let live.

I don't think there is any animosity going on here. Foam has its advantages, clearly; but it also has some disadvantages. People are simply exploring options and issues, not harassing the OP.

[Lemosteam]

Agreed, and Frank has kindly oblidged every thought and question and attempted to demonstrate the effectiveness of the concept.  Let's face it wodd or foam, SOMETHING is going to be damaged if someone falls on it.

[LV LOU]

Lou, that hot wire "saw" is damn brilliant.  Clamp a fence at a specific distance and you have a ripping tool.  How quiclky can the foam pass through the wire?

John,it's not really fast as I have it set up,but I never really messed with different voltage,ETC,on the power supply.On 2" foam,it probably cuts 1 inch a second.I'm happy with it as is,though.Higher heat causes issues like short wire life.Also,I cut some complex shapes that require that I stop momentarily to readjust my grip,and a really hot wire puts out so much heat,it kind of "drills a hole" where you stop....I do have a fence for it..It's 2 feet deep,so I can use it for a full 4X8 sheet if I want.I use a saw for big cuts,though.One cool thing about it.I map out my grades right in the sheets.I mark and cut out the grade first...I temporarily install the sheet,and glue down the grade.I remove the sheet,and the grade is there,free standing.I use a small hotwire to rough in the slope,then block sand it to the proper shape.Then,I reinstall the original sheet,and contour everything to the grade,and finish off the transitions,ETC...I get perfect grades right in the middle of solid sheets..This one was in progress,it's about 2/3 as steep now..

[kelticsylk]

John,it's not really fast as I have it set up,but I never really messed with different voltage,ETC,on the power supply.On 2' foam,it probably cuts 1 inch a second.I'm happy with it as is,though.Higher heat causes issues like short wire life.OAlso,I cut some complex shapes that require that I stop momentarily to readjust my grip,and a really hot wire puts out so much head,it kind of "drills a hole" where you stop....I do have a fence for it..It's 2 feet deep,so I can use it for a full 4X8 sheet if I want.I use a saw for big cuts,though.One cool thing about it.I map out my grades right in the sheets..I temporarily install the sheet,and glue down the grade.I remove the sheet,and the grade is there,free standing.I use a small hotwire to rough in the slope,then block sand it to the proper shape.Then,I reinstall the original sheet,and contour everything to the grade.I get perfect grades right in the middle of solid sheets..This one was in progress,it's about 2/3 as steep now..

Wow...Wish I had seen this back when I was fooling around with a similar concept...I was using strips, but it looks like you're using slabs. Still. the cutter would have made all the difference.

To far committed to the spline concept to change direction now.  I froze the design after deciding on this last general change.

[kelticsylk]

Not to be the contrarian, but your weigh scale almost completely spans the distance between the two wooden supports. Thus it's not applying much pressure at all to the spline's weakest point--rather, it is bridging across it.

Once again Dave, I hadn't thought of that. Forest for the trees once again. Good catch, I'll have to keep you around

I'm trying to restrain myself from running back down to the garage but...I just had to give it a try. You are right Dave, the scale did affect the results. I stacked the buckets again. It was a little precarious. As I was taking the last few pictures I heard a creaking. I thought the spline was gonna go, but it was just the buckets losing balance. Luckily I caught them in time, otherwise I'd be picking up nuts and bolts 'til doomsday. Anyway here are the unadulterated results...


What looks like a pretty bad deflection is actually the ends of the wide radius curve pointing away from the camera. Should have explained that in other pictures...



The real deflection is shown in the images taken from the side at the point where the weight contacts the spline.

From outside of curve...


From inside of curve...


The hard splines don't seem to deflect as much as the soft splines. I've also nticed the curve itself makes it appear that there is more deflection than actually exists. That's the reason I photographed it from both sides this time.

Oh Hell...I forgot to take a shot without the weight.

Some other thoughts in general...I picked up more lattice today. While is was at Lowes I checked on the wood lattice. It's a bit thicker and could bear more weight. There are two drawbacks to the wood from my view...First they won't flex anywhere near as tight as either of the current materials. They could only be used for wide curves. looked to be about 18" radius or greater. They are more expensive as sold at Lowes. While the foam lattice sells for $3.64, the wood is $5.64 or so. You can get them at $4.64, but you have to buy 20. I need 28 for the 70 feet or so of mainline. With the foam lattice that's about $110 with sales tax. The wood splines would cost around $150. I can also buy the foam lattice a few at a time as the budget allows. No need for batch purchases to save money.

One other thought crossed my mind. With tongue in cheek I suggest you could use carbon fiber for the ultimate hard spline. It would probably last longer than the land your home is built on. I don't know how you would cut it or apply it, but I do know a 4' x 8' sheet cost over $1000 

[Scottl]

I think the foam is a great solution here and the lattice a nice addition.  This approach is very good for those without the power tools to rip a lot of wood, just like HCD for those who can't or don't want to build a benchwork frame.  Of course, we never hear nay saying or counter point about using HCD, which also flex when 40 pounds pushes down on them...  Just saying.

[davefoxx]

I think the foam is a great solution here and the lattice a nice addition.  This approach is very good for those without the power tools to rip a lot of wood, just like HCD for those who can't or don't want to build a benchwork frame.  Of course, we never hear nay saying or counter point about using HCD, which also flex when 40 pounds pushes down on them...  Just saying.

No negative waves about the HCD, please.

Sincerely,
The HCD Mafia

[Scottl]

LOL

[DKS]

I think the foam is a great solution here and the lattice a nice addition.  This approach is very good for those without the power tools to rip a lot of wood, just like HCD for those who can't or don't want to build a benchwork frame.  Of course, we never hear nay saying or counter point about using HCD, which also flex when 40 pounds pushes down on them...  Just saying.

Once again, we are not 'naysaying' for the sake of naysaying. You seem to think we have some conspiracy against this technique. Quite the contrary; those of us expressing concern are genuinely interested in his success. Our concern is that he doesn't get so far into the project that a serious problem jeopardizes his layout. Some of us might have preferences on material use, but even these folks are simply expressing their preference, not slamming Frank for his choices. Not to mention that I'm not seeing anyone blowing hot air; the posts have been by and large from experienced modelers who know their stuff.

As for HCD layouts, there have indeed been concerns expressed. Dave Vollmer reported that his door was acquiring a minor sag, and some modelers reinforce their doors with braces underneath to mitigate the problem. All in all, I believe things are quite balanced in this thread.

Besides, one need look no further than Ed's layout for verification that foam can do the job. Well... maybe... 

[Denver Road Doug]

I think until we get 10lb n-scale locos, he's good...

We WAAAAAAy over-engineer our layouts, especially in n-scale.  (and yes, I'm guilty as charged...)