Looking for ideas for a Helix

[Jeff AKA St0rm]

Well the Wife and I just bought a house so now I have my basement to build my layout. The room I have will be 12 by 20. I want to go around the room 2 foot wide and I am thinking of doing 2 levels. I want a double track helix if I have room. What is a good radius for a helix and grade? Can I keep the helix in a 4 food square and still make it operate well. Any advice at this point would be good also drawing if you got them.

thanks

Jeff

[pnolan48]

Have you considered a nolix (no-helix) design? That is, instead of wasting space on a difficult to build and hard to maintain helix, just run a double climbing track up a grade along the wall. I did this on my Portsmouth Branch, which was three levels. At a 2% grade, you can gain enough elevation along the walls for two levels. You "sacrifice" about 4" in depth from the 24" depth, but much of that isn't really sacrificed, as most of the climb can be a visible element.

[bill pearce]

I would very carefully reconsider. Do you have this much time and energy? Do you want to devote much of your time to this? My last layout was BIG, and as I am considering a new one, I can say that it will be smaller, both in area and it will be a single level.

It sounded great at the time but it proved to be frustrating. At the time of his unfortunate death, David Haines was in the process of converting his two level layout (one end a large helix, the other a long along the wall track) as he was frustrated by the long periods of concealed running and maintenance problems.

Bill Pearce

[kelticsylk]

I don't have a two level layout, but I am building a four track helix. Because of budget restraints I'm trying a less expensive alternative to the usual construction method. The details are here...
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=27235.30

The radius of the outside curve is 22", the inside a little over 18". I had plans for a 30" radius at one time, but it took up too much space.
 
The helix was added to provide a way to get trains from the summit of the Alleghenies back down to the bottom of the hill without using a return loop. It also doubles the mainline and provides a kind of hidden "staging". Trains can be parked on the helix and released on a schedule (haven't worked that part out yet).

Regards,
Frank Musick

[peteski]

Jeff,
a helix "swallows" your train for an extended period of time.  It also destroys any notion of the train actually moving from point A to a point B (which is supposed to be far away from point A.)  I guess the wait is ok if you want to grab a cup of coffee or hit the bathroom.    But when you are waiting for your train to re-appear from that wormhole, it is not much fun.

I'm currently involved in building sessions on my friend's layout. His original design included a 3-track helix!   But he was talked out of doing that and instead he decided to straighten the helix out into a visible grade running around the layout. Now the operators will be able to actually see and follow their trains as now the distance from point A to point B has suddenly become real and visible.  If you want a multilevel layout, you might want to consider not using a helix.

For more info about my friend's helix-less 2-level layout see http://albanysusquehanna.blogspot.com/2008/04/plan.html

[BCR 570]

My layout is a double deck affair around three walls of an 11' x 13' room with a helix connecting the two levels.

Construction details and photographs are on the Construction Page of my website - click on third topic down.


Tim

[nkalanaga]

To answer your original questions, a 22 inch radius curve will fit in a four foot square, and for double track, 20 and 22 inch curves will handle anything you're likely to run.  A 2% grade with 20 inch radius will give 2.5 inches of climb per turn, which will limit your roadbed thickness.  Depending on what you plan on running, you should allow at least 1.75 inches of clearance for a modern railroad.  That will leave 0.75 inches for track, roadbed, and supports.  Designing the thing is left as an exercise for the modeler!   

[Rossford Yard]

Agree if you do a helix, it should be at one end of the line or other and only down to staging.  A helix in the middle of a run is not a good thing.

You can check the layout construction blogs (Indiana Harbor Belt of Texas) for pictures of mine, which I had Soo of this forum build.  They require great diligence (more than I have) to get perfect and nearly bullet proof.  Only one mishap so far, and I don't think that was related to track, since we have backed twenty five car trains down that thing at high speed.

One problem with the nolix is the constant grade, a no no if you like switching.  My thought on this railroad was to limit grades (and their problems) to the one area of the helix and be flat everywhere else.  So, its all a trade off.

BTW, my helix is 19" radius and just over 2%.  I think we started there, thinking we could use 19" R Unitrak for ultimate reliability.  Ended up using Atlas Code 80 instead, to reduce clearance and also, I think, timing.  We couldn't find enough of the Unitrak in time.  But, if your trains aren't 30 car monsters, using the 19" Unitrak might be a good idea for its electrical connectivity, cleaner rails (my experience in a garage and behind the water heater) and bullet proof construction.

[hpwrick]

Hi There,

If the OP had asked "Should I build a helix?" then some of the answers here would be appropriate.   Instead he wants to know how to build a helix and wants some ideas.   Yes, it can be contained in a four foot square, needs to be kept at a 2% gradient,  it doesn't have to be a "canned" roundy round from top to bottom, yes... push the radii of the track out as far as you can ,   do leave a pop-up or access hole in the middle to allow you to recover derails and perform maintenance.   Let's not forget what others have said here... how to!

How about?   An idea of a working helexii that is visible, interacts with other track, that doesn't swallow up a train into a worm hole but makes it visible on various levels.      How about one that serves a two track main and a two track coal district?   Here we go: 

You may need to hit pause to study it.    Careful now many have looked at it and said "I don't want a mess like that".   Usually the initial, first look see...response.    After watching trains run up and down it...well...I've heard "Dumb a$$" or the other extreme "Genius,"  as they mumble amongest themselves...LOL.   I wouldn't take it to those extremes.   Practicle, viewable, entertaining and anything but boring was the application I was looking for. 

You will need to study it to appreciate the benefits.    Not the typical helexii....is it?   Gosh who wants what everyone else has?
Perhaps not a true helixii but it works very well...for my needs.   

It all fits in a 10' X 10' metal tin shed.    Tin shed... I wouldn't recommend.   

There is a written detailed description.   Worth the read if you have time.

I hope this helps.

[BN1970]

Jeff, I built two helix's for my N-Scale layout (12' by 20') from an article in the March 2008 Model Railroader.

My helix's are 4 feet in diameter and have a 2.1% grade, with 5 1/2 turns, working out to be about 2 scale miles long.  I also kept the sides open so you can see your train moving along.  This allows for easier maintenance and if something derails to fix it.  I also put in sidings to be used for staging or meets.  Its worked out quite well.  I have also found that people actually like to watch the trains go round and round as they proceed up or down the helix's.

The author of that MR article has a couple of YouTube video's on how he made his helix.  The link's are below.  I did something different for my sub roadbed, but the video's will give you the idea. --Brian

     

[Jeff AKA St0rm]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I would like to say to Bill that I have been waiting for this day for 10 years. I have built 5 smaller layouts 3.5'x9'ish and 2 large layouts 15'x30' so I know all about time and effort in a layout. I am a golf professional so I have my winters free to work on the layout. Also I will have building help form my fellow club members.

That being said I should give a little more info on what I want to build. I am planing on running 24 car trains with 3-5 locos. I do modern, I have over 250 locos and 3000 rolling stock and I would like to get most of it on the layout as I custom paint and weather everything I have. I just bought AnyRail and I have started to work on track ideas. I am looking at doing a triple track main 1 east 1 west and 1 passing as the CN Main line is from Hamilton to Toronto. I model CP, NS and BNSF so my layout will be a freelance of the 3 roads. I want to have lost of operations as I get board with trains running in circles.

I thank you all for the feedback so far and I hope for more. I don't know if I am going to do a Helix at this point but it is an option. I do like some of the other options that others have posted.

thanks again

Jeff 

[peteski]

Rick,
have you watched any political debates for the last few election cycle? The nominees very seldom give direct answers to the questions asked. Welcome to the real world! 

In my response I demonstrated that my friend was absolutely sure that he wanted a layout with a helix but he was persuaded that it wasn't the optimal solution. He changed his mind and ended up no using a helix.

Anyways, judging by Jeff's response, he actually appreciated the answers providing alternatives to a helix. Isn't this type of information exchange between people what the online forums are all about? 

[rsn48]

The concept of a "nolix" was created by John Armstrong as a joke, in the publish plans of the Athabasca railroad in MR.  The patron requesting the plan was the racing car driver type, forget his name, and he was specific he wanted no helix's but John submitted his first plan with 3 helix's. So the client then emphasized again the lack of desire for a helix.

So what John did was produce a plan that had a peninsula and the peninsula had visible track as the train gained or lost elevation.  John jokingly called this area, not the thing, a "nolix."  I then took this idea and ran with it while I was a moderator at Trainboard in the Layout Design forum.  I called a thing a "nolix" if it wasn't circular and had a fair bit (never did define a fair bit) running track visible.

I'm in the process of building my version of a nolix which is basically an oval that is L shaped (thus I guess not an oval) and roughly in the inside area of the L shaped oval, that track will be visible as it gains or loses elevation.  The visible track will be running through larger S curves roughly 17 inches radius.

I too have concerns with the length of time a train takes to travel a helix.  But maybe because I'm getting older I'm more patient but when I visited Tim Horton's layout with its helix, the length of time the train spent in the helix didn't seem to bad, I don't recall how many inches of separation of deck there is with Tim's design.  I have 20 inches of seperation so I need roughly 80 feet to raise the train that amount.  If you can design a structure that is within the design the layout without the blob appearance, you might try that, like John Armstrong's nolix peninsula.

I think train running in a helix affects folks differently.  If you come from a strong railfan background, then standing around for a couple of minutes waiting for your train to appear is nothing, considering the hours spent sometimes waiting in the real scenario.

Also the blob affect of a helix isn't as pronounced as in HO as our curves can be "broad" and yet the diameter of the helix required being significantly narrower than our mis-guided HO brethren.  In fact Tim has one of the most impressive helix's I've seen in N scale, with some excellent electronic internal monitoring of trains, you might want to contact him or visit his web site.

Here is a link to Tim Horton's web site, hit on construction if my link doesn't work quite properly and then on helix:

http://www.bcrdawsonsub.ca/

[Hyperion]

In fact Tim has one of the most impressive helix's I've seen in N scale, with some excellent electronic internal monitoring of trains, you might want to contact him or visit his web site.

Here is a link to Tim Horton's web site, hit on construction if my link doesn't work quite properly and then on helix:

http://www.bcrdawsonsub.ca/

No need to seek him out.  Tim is, in fact, quite active here on TRW.   You'll notice he posted about his helix a few posts down from the start.

[rsn48]

Tim is active here, I'm not so I guess I blew past his post........