I want to build a CPR Royal Hudson... but I need help

[craigolio1]

Hello all.  I posted this on another forum but there isn't much traffic so I thought I would re-post it here.  plus I know there are some Canadian steam guys here.

My favorite loco ever is the CPR Royal Hudson. Namely 2860 when she was in BC Rail service in the late '80s.
I've been collecting parts for a long time but have never started it. Recently I read a three part article in the Model Railroad Hobbyist e-zine on scratch building a steam locomotive out of styrene which got me thinking about the project again. I have some plans in my head but need some inspiration to get moving. So, the purpose of my post is to get input and direction from those who have built or detailed steam locos before, and could shepherd me in the right direction.

Here's what I have so far:

Research and reference:

Lots of good photos
O-Sho-Me plans
CPR drawings from the CPR Sig website

Mechanism:

Model Power 4-6-2

Loco Parts :

Miniatures by Eric funnel, various boiler details, bell etc, pilot, class lights, trailing truck
Kato 4-8-4 valve gear (I can't recall the type but some who knows told me it's correct)

Tender Parts:
Miniatures by Eric cast resin coal tender (I need the oil tender but the basic dimensions are the same and it could be used as reference for a scratch build), hatches, buffer, light,
Kato Buck-Eye trucks

Decals:
Black Cat CPR Steam Locos - basic decorations

And then my plans

Loco:

The Model Power is a good start. With a traction tire it will pull a decent size train. The drivers are the correct size and spacing. The front truck is about 2mm too long in wheel base and spaced too far ahead of the drivers resulting in a model that would be about 3.5mm too long, but this is needed to make sure the flanges don't catch the drivers in turns so I'll leave it. The one issue is that it has a cast metal boiler in which the motor is mounted. Remove the boiler and you have no way of holding the motor in place, with out making a new mount. My plan is to file the boiler down and then fit my new boiler over top and attach it with screws in the funnel and under the cab. The streamlined boiler jacket made the boiler look larger and this should give a little room to play. I can add weight in spaces under the boiler once it's fitted, and it will leave room for lighting wires as well.

The cab will be a challenge. It has lots of relief in the doors and windows etc and has curved edges at the corners. It would be a good candidate for etching but I can't do it and it's cost prohibitive to have it done. I'll do it styrene I think.

The kato valve gear while correct, looks too big. In the 2009(?) N Track Steam Information Book Adendum, there is an article on power the Del Prado model. The fellow used the gear from a Kato Japanese Hudson and it looked good so that is an option. Getting the Japanese parts can be a problem though. I may just leave the valve gear as is. I don't feel that it's critical.

The trailing truck will be interesting. The Eric part is a three piece brass casting. There are no provisions to actually mount wheels or axles in it so I think I need to make something out of styrene. I have wheels/axles in the appropriate sizes from North West Shortline. It's a matter of getting them aligned, fixed in place, and free rolling. I don't yet know how I might do that.

UPDT:  I built the trailing truck tonight and will post photos in a build thread another time.  The Coles notes version I that I built a two piece interlocking bolster between the two frames from styrene.  It assembles with a screw and can be adjusted in width to tune the fit with the axles.  I drilled a hole through each side fame and glued a pin into it.  The pin goes into the bolster to create a strong bond between the brass side frame and the bolster.  I also built a jig to put the frame halves in so that i could properly locate holes to drill and ream for the axle ends to sit in.  The result is a free rolling truck that I can adjust to fit the axles perfectly.  The only thing left do on it is make a brass yolk (don't know what else to call it) at the front of the truck that will solder to the two sides and add stability, as well as a means of attaching it to the pin on the back of the loco.  It'll be easy to file out of a piece of brass.  i just don't have any.

Tender:

It'll be a total scratch build which won't be tough. Eric makes pretty much all of the details. 12 wheel pick up will be good as the loco has poor pickup as it comes in the box and people recommend swapping out the trucks for better electrical contact anyway. The Kato trucks are free rolling with pointed axles as well. I plan to put a sound decoder in the tender with the speaker facing out the bottom between the trucks. The tender and loco are close coupled so wires in between them won't be a problem.

Decals and details:

The smoke box front is a real problem. I've tried to make one but have had no luck carving one from wood or plastic. I thought maybe I could layer thin circles to create the curved edges I want. Then fill and file. Or I could chuck a piece in the drill press and work it like a lathe.
The Black Cat decals are a great starting point but 2860 specific details are needed. The coat of arms on smoke box is needed as is the shield on the cab, the crowns on the running boards, and coat of arms on the tender. Decals would work for the first two but the tender one was 3D and should be on the model too. Again an etched piece would be ideal but won't happen. Maybe a decal applied to layers of styrene to make a 3D piece? I'm at a loss here.

UPDT:  I reassessed the Eric smoke box front.  It looks great but is to small in diameter.  I think I'll glue it to a flat piece of styrene and add a ring of material around it to make it a little larger.  Then file it to fit. 


And that's where I'm at so far. Obviously the place to start is with the chassis. Any input you can give is much appreciated. The only steam I've done is a half complete detail job on an a Spectrum 2-8-0.

Thanks very much for helping me start off in the right direction.

Craig

[mmagliaro]

A little bird tells me....

The 2009 NTrak Steam Locomotive Book Steam Addendum  has an article on kitbashing a CP Royal Hudson in it,
and the most recent edition of the NTrak Steam Locomotive Book itself has another article on making a CP Royal Hudson.
Those might be of some help to you.

[SkipGear]

I can't remember where but somebody makes a CP all weather cab that might be a good starting point. Can you post some photo's of the prototype and or what you have done so far?

PS. continue to add posts, don't edit your original post, it won't move to the top of the pile and nobody will see it.

[craigolio1]

Thanks for the tip Tony.

The Canadian all weather cab is offered by Miniatures by Eric.  It's on older style of cab and I'm not sure if it would be a good starting point.  I have a few of them and they look too tall to me, in addition to other issues.

There are three kit-bashing articles that I'm aware of.  All of them use the Concor Hudson which is a much longer loco (NYC prototype) than the CPR Hudsons.  The CPR locos were closer to the size of a Pacific which is why the Model Power loco is such a good starting point, having almost perfect driver and wheelbase numbers. 

A 1997 RMC article uses the Concor shell with a bunch of parts by Miniatures by Eric.  The same I have mentioned above, but the result is a loco that's much longer than the prototype (maybe 5 scale ft?) and with a boiler that is too narrow.  It looks sort of like the Royal Hudson, but really only because of the paint.

There are two articles I'm aware of in the N Track books.  One uses the Concor chassis and shell, the result being much like the RMC article.  The other more recent one (not sure of the date) use the Concor chassis and the Del Prado shell which looks awful in my opinion.  It's very toy like and odd looking.

My goal is to get very close to the prototype with my model.  It will require so much work to do, I don't want to be disappointed at the end which is why I'm going to have to make a lot of my own parts.

I looked through the four N Track steam books today and I had forgotten how much inspiration was in there.

I will take photos when I can for sure.  Right now there isn't much to show at all.  Just a partially assembled rear truck.  When I'm done that and have it conected to the chassis I'll post something.

Thanks for your help.

Craig

[absnut]

Would the Del Prado Royal Hudson shell be a good start?

[craigolio1]

Hey Dick.  Thanks for the reply.  The Del Prado shell looks like a toy.  It's OK for a static model on a shelf but doesn't measure up to the standard I'm hoping to achieve.  It's very narrow as well and the plastic is thick.  When you mount it on the Concor chassis it rides quite high which adds to the odd look. 

Don't get me wrong, the finished model is certainly recognizable and would be fun to have until I could acquire a better model, but I don't want to waste time and money on it, when I could invest it in a better looking model.

I found some brass tubing that is the PERFECT diameter for the boiler so it looks like I may be able to make this go.  If I can come up with a plan for a decent looking smoke box front and cab, I'll be on the way to a credible model.

Craig

[BCR 570]

Craig:

Starting with a brass tube for the boiler and mating it to the Model Power 4-6-2 mechanism would be the way to go.  The various Eric pieces will also help.

The Eric resin cab is quite different from the H1e cab which has a flatter roof - it is very likely also wider.

I have the Del Prado Hudson model.  As you state, while it is recofnizable, it is an approximation with many inaccuracies.  I also have another static model which is more accurate, but is a solid casting.


Tim

[SkipGear]

Here is a good group of reference shots of an HO brass version...

http://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/030679/HO-PFM-Tenshodo-CPR-Royal-Hudson-4-6-4-2860

From the looks of things, it has a straight boiler which makes life much easier to scratch build.
The smoke box cover should be fairly easy, just a simple turning.
The most difficult things appear to be the pilot and front step and shroud.
The cab looks to be a challenge also.

The tender should not be bad to scratch. Use Rivarossi 3 axle trucks from their Berkshire tender.


Here is another solution for the MP drive mech.

[craigolio1]

Hey guys.

Tony, I have seen that drive modification before.  It's awesome!  But I think it may be beyond my skills.  I'm not much of a metal worker.  This is why my plan it to use the existing body/drive attachment and fit my new boiler over top.  That;s the plan anyway.  The first thing I should do after I fit the rear truck is cut a piece of tubing, grind down the MP boiler, and see if I can get the tubing attached to it.  Once that's done I think it would be the end of major construction (cab and tender not included).

Tim, where did you find the other static model?  Can you post a photo?

Craig

[nstars]

Here's a picture of the Royal Hudson my brother build for a friend of us. Almost everything is scratchbuild. The drivers are from a Minitrix K4 Pacific which gave almost the perfect diameter. As far as I know thse drivers are considerable larger than the MP pacific. Another important aspect for good running is the large overhang of the cab at the back.

Marc

[craigolio1]

That's a great looking model Mark!  In fact it looks perfect.  Way beyond my skill level though, and budget to have one built for me.  A while back I was communicating with a fellow who had made one for another modeler and was offering to do the same for me but it was out of my price range.  Perhaps it was your brother?

 The drivers on the MP Pacific are very close.  I made sure of that before I bought it. 

Tony, I had a look at the link you included.  There are so many great photos there.  Thanks for sharing it.  They will be very useful, especially the top down shots and the ones of the cab rear and tender front.  You don't ever see those on prototype photos.  I have a pilot for it from Miniatures by Eric.  The smoke box front seems to me like it would be a challenge.  Would you mind explaining for me how you would make it?  You mention it being a simple turning.  Do you mean on a mill or lathe?  That's sort of how I thought I might do it, only I don't have a lathe.  My Dremel press can rotate 90 deg though so I try it on that and just shape it by eye.


Thanks again, Craig

[BCR 570]

Tim, where did you find the other static model?

Craig:

It is a resin model mounted on a wood plinth which belonged to my late friend Lance Camp, who recorded many fabulous images of 2860.  I acquired it as a memento of our friendship.  I do not know its origin, but it is different from the Del Prado model.  Whether or not it is more faithful, I am not sure.


Tim

[SkipGear]

Craig,
 I don't have a lathe, (well I do, but it is still in a box waiting for space on the workbench to set it up), so I use a drill press for most of my turning work. Tool are files, a dremel and sandpaper.

This was done with a couple pieces of telescoping K&S brass soldered together and then shaped on the drill press....

[craigolio1]

Tim, what a nice keepsake to have.  You'll have to keep that one safe.

Tony, that's amazing!  Guess I'll have to break out my drill press.

I made some progress the other night.  I got the Miniatures by Eric brass pilot mounted.  I also did more work on the trailing truck.  I managed to get it to the point where it is an assembled rolling unit, but now have to get it attached to the mechanism.  It snuggles up really close to the drivers (unlike the single axles truck on the Pacific which was farther back) which will put the attachment point right under the screw that held on the original truck.  I know how I need to do it but some modifications need to be made to the bottom of the mechanism.  Just a little removal of metal.  If you look at the photos of the Tenshodo brass model it used a thin metal bar to attach to the screw allowing both pivoting of the truck and latteral movement.  I'll use this method.  It's simple and will work well to allow the truck to move about on curves.  Once that is done I'll get to work on the boiler.

No photos yet but there will be soon. 

Craig

[craigolio1]

OK so I think I'll be redoing the trailing truck.  Here's why.  The prototype has a 36" wheelset on the front and a 45" wheelset on the back.  I used a Fox Valley Models 36" metal set for the front and a pair of NWSL 40" diesel loco replacement wheels in the back (on an axle scavenged from a Kato passenger car truck).  I chose the 40" because it was closest thing I could find a few years ago when I was collecting parts.  Not happy with the look of the 40" wheel as it was finally installed, I began surfing for an alternative.  I couldn't find anything in N scale but I did find some HOn3 wheels in the NWSL catalogue.  They have the /64 tread like the N scale wheels and are 24" in HO.  Scaled down to N that would be 44.16".  Sounds good to me.

Now to find some.

Craig