D&H Rocky Mountain Empire (N-Scale) - Design Stage

[Stourbridge Lion]

D&H Rocky Mountain Empire (N-Scale) - Design Stage

OK, I'm starting to get serious in designing my future N Scale layout but need a few pointers. My wife and I still need to work out some ROW limits but basically I'm heading into a basement bedroom and maybe an extension into the family room that will either be just the Double-Helix or Double-Helix & City/Yard area between the Helix and Bedroom.

So, I have a few upfront questions that will likely lead to more questions. My initial question is Minimum Radii given my roster of equipment I've been collecting over the years (http://myrailroad.wordpress.com/category/model-train-gauge/1160-n-scale/) as I will want to go as tight as I can. My main area of concern would be my passenger consists (Adirondack Consist #1 http://myrailroad.wordpress.com/tag/adirondack-consist-1/, Laurentian Consist #1 http://myrailroad.wordpress.com/tag/laurentian-consist-1/,and Montreal Limited Consist #1 http://myrailroad.wordpress.com/tag/montreal-limited-consist-1/) which would likely be pulled by multiple 6-Axle PA's.

I'm looking at a Loop Style "DC" layout that is a walk-around using two of the physical walls leaving the other two open as aisles. I will also plan to go vertical with either 2 or 3 levels. Track #1 / #2 would be on Level #1, Track #3 / #4 on Level #2. Would like to have a Double Slip switch setup so a trains can either us each track separately or have a single train use the Double Slip to use both tracks as one. The Inner Helix would be for downward travel from Level #2 to Level#1 and the Outer Helix for Upward travel.

So what would be your recommended minimum Curve Radii, and Turnout #. I've been messing around in CAD using 13.75", 15.00" , 16.25" and 17.00" curves and #5 and #7 turnouts to try different designs but now I need to know what is reality for my roster.

Also feel free to ask questions of me as well and yes I will post room floor plans as well soon too...

[Stourbridge Lion]

Current ROW Limits

Here is the current ROW limits being discussed (in yellow) and "I hope" to expand over to the window on the far right passing the bench-work "over" the desk. So the Helix right now would be to the left of the Fireplace (38"x38") and the track would pass through the wall onto the main layout area in the "Train Room". We don't use the Fireplace so having the bench-work pass over/near it's opening is not a concern. The "Train Room" has two small windows that are up near the ceiling as the basement is underground and the room is already Heated/Cooled year around. If I can get the additional ROW it would be gaining a 38" deep bench-work all the way over to the window on the right and I would move the Helix over to the far right next to that window. So, basically I have a solid 8ft x 9ft zone to work with plus the 3ft x 3ft behind the door as well as a 3ft x 3ft area outside the room for the Helix that would have easy access to it and doesn't need to be hidden by scenery given it's location.

[PAL_Houston]

First thought:  I am jealous.  Looks like a nice area to work with!

2nd thought: if you need that door from the sitting area to the trainroom to close, better think about re-hanging it to swing the other way.

3rd:  how's the lighting?

4th:  what's the flooring, and will it be comfortable for you year round?

5th:  what kind of benchwork do you anticipate using?

[Stourbridge Lion]

Hi Paul!

Yes, it's a nice area that I have been hoping for a few years could become Train Room and it looks to finally going to happen.  I will likely keep the door "As Is" just because of wanting to maintain the look from the Family Room and just add a simple lock on the door in case any young ones are over that I don't want to sneak in without supervision.

Right now this Storage/Bedroom just has a central light fixture in the ceiling but I am thinking of adding small LED lighting system above the tracks over each level  so the room would have more of a museum display feel for it.  Basically the layout is for the display of the model collection where I can flip a single switch and 1 to 5 trains will start running on their separate tracks hence the lack of need for DCC.  I still might go DCC for the sound effects but that is not a priority for me.

Currently it's a concrete floor (foundation) that was tiled and later covered with Blue/Green shag (70's era).  I will likely pull the carpet out and put down a soft foam matting.  The room itself is comfortable to be in year around as it was designed to be a bedroom.  The door on the bottom is for a small closet as well as access to the pluming for the bathroom on the other side of the wall.

I have not settled of Track or Bench-work yet but I have been "What if" planing using a Code 55 Atlas library.  I will likely do an L-Girder on the walls and the main area will depend on the layout design as it matures; it might be L-Girder there using a few 6x6 as posts forming a strong triangular base.  I have another image I will post soon with my current concept of how I might use the space...

[Stourbridge Lion]

Design Concepts being played with

Visualize a Grid Label system for the squares as "A" through "N" across the top and "1" through "9" down the side.

I'm thinking about using a 9-12" deep bench-work from A1 to H1 where it would have 4 tracks. Two of them would be Track #1/#2 for Left-Bound and two of them would be for Track #1/#2 Right-bound. Either the Left-Bound or the Right-Bound would be at the same elevation for the one and only Cross-Over for the level. The other direction for Track #1 / #2 would have a ~3" difference in elevation with Track #1 potentially "hidden" under Track #2 so only three of the 4 tracks would be visible. Access to the hidden track would be a simple reach under the bench-work.

The 3x3 Area of I1 through K3 would be for a 180+ degree turn of Track #1/#2 as well as allow the Inner Helix to enter onto Track #1 (downward path) and for Track #2 to exit into the Outer Helix (upward). The Inner-Helix would make one more rotation to give me a 2+ inch clearance to go under the Outer-Helix and thus give elevation difference for Track #1 and Track #2 to use the same space.

Continuing this thought using a 9-12" deep bench-work from A1 to A8 would also have 4 tracks; likely the same part of Track #1 being hidden and potential one direction of Track #2 also being in a "Tunnel" it entered in A1. At "A8" the four tracks separate onto the main bench-work in the middle of the room.

I'm thinking having a View Block between A8 / A9 through F8 / F9 so viewing from the "Shelf" Area one would see two tracks exit tunnels at different elevations around B9 / A9 and head along a 9-12" depth using Row#9 of the grid. Both tracks would eventually turn upward onto the main bench-work in the middle of the room..

Using B2 through C7 as a Aisle the other two tracks now turn in-front of the Dead-End Aisle at different elevations with one of both tracks heading from D8 to D4.

At some point the two tracks that passed in front of the Shelf Area behind the View Block would meet up with the two tracks that stayed in front of the View bock to complete the loops of Track #1 and Track #2. Below is a quick image of how that described bench-work would start to take shape within the ROW area. Note the Aisles will be roughly 24-30" within the interior of the Walk-around which I know is a bit tight but this is an "Operator-less" DC design and mainly only Lisa and I being the Viewers.

Helix traffic to Level #2 would have a similar / identical bench-work and concept for Track #3 / #4 and if there is a Level #3, Track #5 would be up there by itself without any Cross-over so Row "1" and "A" would likely only be 6-9" in depth since it would only be two tracks not 4 in those areas. I'm not sure how much separation I will have between levels so that will dictate in Level #3 happens or not and the separation between levels will be 100% controlled by the Helix Entrance / Exit elevations. After that Track #1/#2 and Track #3/#4 will have an elevation difference of 2-3 inches excepted where they need to grade to a common Cross-over at an elevation between them so the Cross-Over will likely be somewhere near the Upper-Left corner either before or after the turn.

[PGE_Modeller]

A 3' X 3' area for a double track helix is pretty much going to determine your minimum radius and is going to provide some design challenges.  Allowing a 1 1/2" space beyond the outer track centreline leaves room for a 16 1/2" radius for the outer helix.  With full length passenger cars, a minimum of 1 1/4" between tracks is probably reasonable - but you might want to lay out a couple of corresponding curves and make sure that equipment clears with no problem.  That leaves 15 1/4" as the maximum radius for the inner helix.  To allow space for fingers, etc. when the time comes to re-rail cars in the helix, you most likely need about 2 1/2" railhead-to-railhead separation between turns using something like 1/8" aircraft grade plywood for the track support with extra pieces laminated on at the edges to provide strength.  Tim Horton (BCR 570), Mike Lawrence (not sure if he is on this forum or not) and myself have all used 1/8" 5-ply Baltic Birch as the base layer.  Tim used 1/8" stiffeners at the edges, I used 1/4" and I am not sure what Mike ended up using.  This construction leaves me enough room to get my fingers in above a standard height box car without scraping my knuckles too badly on the underside of the next turn. 

With a 2 1/2" separation, the outer 16 1/2" radius yields a grade of 2.41% while the inner 15 1/4" radius line would have a 2.61% grade.  You might be able to go a bit larger on the curve radii but going anything over about 16 3/4" for the outer track starts to introduce challenges maintaining clearance between the helix supports and overhanging equipment.  However, 16 3/4" and 15 1/2" curves would reduce the grades to 2.38% and 2.57%.  This is a small change but every little bit helps!

Have fun planning and building.

Cheers,

[Stourbridge Lion]

Thanks Greg!!!!!!!

This is the type of advise I am 120% looking for as I start to do serious design work... 

[Stourbridge Lion]

HELIX / Level #1

OK, based on comments I get earlier from various forums, right now I thinking about a Double Helix at 16.25" / 15.00". Remember I'm thinking DC thus the Inner Helix would be Downward traffic only and the Outer for Upward traffic. I'm thinking Level #1 for a 2-Track design that will use a Double-Slip allowing a single train to travel over both tracks to double the length of the loop of two trains traveling each track separately. Track #1 would be lower then Track #2 except where they meet at the Cross-Over. Looks like I will need to go no lower then a 15" curve, use #7 turnouts w/ a 71" curve for side track switching and user #10 Turnouts with 11.25 crossing for the Double-slip design.

I'm not hard set on the heavy track design but trying to see if the space can support the concept

With that here is a potential design showing a Double-Helix and the Side Track; one that would attach to Track#1 (Inbound) and the other to attach to Track #2 (Outbound)

[LKOrailroad]

Is there a special reason why the shelf in the lower left of the drawing can't be removed. It appears to "steal" a lot of design possibility from the room.

[Stourbridge Lion]

Yes, that Shelving unit is Floor to near-Ceiling and will hold other parts of my RR collection on it so it will remain in that location.  Also an O-Scale train will run around the top of the room using the top of the shelving area as part of it's support.  The bathroom is also behind those shelves and where access to the pluming is at; hence the need to keep a good isle space along that wall.

[DKS]

Just some random thoughts about space utilization...



Right away, I'd reverse the door by the helix, if at all possible. This reduces the clutter in a high traffic area in the layout room; it also affords a panoramic view of nearly the entire layout as one enters the door.

The curved benchwork lets you broaden curves by eliminating inner corners and dogleg zigzags, giving the space a more airy, open feel, even though the benchwork surface area is roughly the same.

I don't know if access to the window is an issue, but the wye of the double-sided backdrop offers some access, albeit cramped, without compromising the appearance of the layout.

I would envision both upper and lower decks having about the same geometry; however, if you want to get clever and can play around a little with the display shelving, I could envision an extension coming off of the lower deck at the bottom left corner and occupying one of the shelves from end to end, which could provide a fairly substantial staging yard.

Anyway, it's just a scribble, something to think about, argue over, or throw away as you see fit.

[Stourbridge Lion]

Definitely things I will keep in mind David as nothing I presently is in stone so any ideas from others like yourself are fantastic!  I too am thinking the Upper and Lower levels with have similar geometry and I would "Round-Off" the bench-work corners based on where the final track-age / scenery ends up

[Stourbridge Lion]

Track #1 from the Helix

Here is a potential beginning of Track #1 that I have been playing with and also a placement of the Double-Slip switch to get back-n-forth to Track #2. About 50% of what you see of Track #1 would be hidden that I will show later and nearly all the track behind the entrance door from the Family Room wouldbe hidden so the door being open would just be part of the View Block; at least that is where my head is at currently...

[Stourbridge Lion]

Track #2 to the Helix

    Here is my potential beginnings for Track #2 and how it would hook up with the Double-Slip. Track #2 would be on the same Level as Track #1 but higher except were they meet at the Double-Slip. About 50% of this portion of Track #2 would be hidden (will show later) but mainly the track behind the door as it enters a tunnel making the 180 degree turn and the section of Track #2 that passed under itself is what is hidden.

[DKS]

Are you planning to use sectional track, or are you simply using it as a design tool?