Discussion: Is Rapid Prototyping changing the definition of our hobby ?

[Puddington]

Time was not so long ago when, if you wanted a White Tower burger shop on your n scale pike you had to make a "bee line" to the work bench, gather various scratch building materials and spend a significant number of hours scratch building it. What you got was a result of the combination of your materials, techniques, tools, skills and imagination....The point being that if you didn't want to settle for commercially produced RTR, you had to "model it"...but all that is changing, and changing "rapidly"...

Now; if you want a White Tower, as our friend Bryan did, you don't first go to the bench, you go to the computer. The ability to design a structure, car or other item you desire and send it to a machine "somewhere" and receive a model or model pieces that are built specifically to your specifications opens a universe of possibilities to the railroad modeler.... but does it also systemically change the hobby and the key skill requirements needs to excel ?

Today; it appears, that to be a "cutting edge" modeler, the skills needed to CAD design you desired item may well be more important than the skills needed scratch build it...? Does this change our hobby ? Does the fact that rapid prototyping, while still in its infancy, once further developed could render much of the small run or even medium run RTR products obsolete ? (I mean, if you can get that CPR GP 9 w/ DB and TT's, Pyle head lamp and extended tank via a short or single run and not have to wait for Atlas/Kato to make something close so you can spend hours detailing it, why would you not dive in ?) Does this signal the end of commercial detail parts because there will be smaller demand and you can whip up the exact part via FUD...?

This isn't a judgmental question, it's a systemic one - has Rapid Prototyping signaled the "changing of the guard" in the desired skill sets of the model railroader... will the next generation of modelers be more savvy with a CAD program than an x-acto knife ? Will NRMA Master modelers have to exhibit a keen computer skill to design in 3D rather than their ability to craft a wooden trestle from basswood ? Does this new technology raise the bar on what we can expect in terms of prototypical modeling or does it delude the skill base even further that the expanded RTR market has been accused of doing....?

Does this advancement change the definition of model railroading....?

[Ed Kapuscinski]

I don't know if it changes the definition, but it's definitely an improvement!

People had the same apprehension over the widespread availability of polystyrene 50 years ago, and look at all the awesomeness THAT has brought us.

The one thing that remains though, is that just because you can RP up something, doesn't mean it's the only way to do it. You can always get out the Evergreen and go to town.

[MVW]

Nope. Or at least, not anytime soon.

We get plenty of exposure to rapid prototyping on this board, but it's probably safe to say the primary contributors here are not representative of model railroad hobbyists overall. I'm guessing that the folks playing around with RP are not only fairly accomplished modelers in the traditional sense, but have the particular skill set to be able to utilize CAD and learn the ropes of the RP process. That's a small subset, a fraction of a percent of total modelers.

I'm fairly computer and graphics savvy, having worked in publishing for the better part of three decades. But while RP is fascinating, I'm not about to devote my hobby time to acquiring that skill. I know enough to know I don't know enough, and the majority of model railroaders don't even know that much about CAD.

I admire (and envy) the work that's being cranked out through RP. I hope and fully expect the amount of work to continue to grow. That's great for all of us. But in the end, there will still be those who'd rather whip something together at their own workbench. Or be content to assemble a great new RP kit.

Excellent question, Mr. P. Should make for an interesting discussion.

Jim

[Scottl]

I suspect that the next generation of modellers will see CAD work and RP as an interesting and fruitful part of the hobby rather than a distraction.  The goal posts change with time, and I think even at this early stage, RP will probably have a tremendous impact on our hobby.  In ten years time, I suspect it will be routine, as much as kitbashing, scratch building and other parts of the hobby are now.

[Brakie]

I also suspect that the next generation of modelers will see a lot of CAD modeling,more photo backgrounds on the backdrop, just better modeling all around-we haven't even seen the tip of the iceberg yet of what can be done with the help of a computer..

[DKS]

I'll have to agree with Jim that it's not really bearing a significant impact on our hobby. I believe it's one of those buzzword technologies that light up modelers' eyes. But I feel it's being entirely over-hyped. While there are some RP machines that can render acceptable models, they're few in number and very costly to use. Plus, it takes a high degree of skill to take the best advantage of RP. There may be some products for which it's well suited, but IMO too many people are not using RP for its strengths. Instead, they're touting it as the technology of the century, with glowing generalities such as "unlimited possibilities" and "limited only by your imagination."

RP was created for the purpose of its name: Rapid Prototyping. That is, a means to quickly create a 3D rendering of an object that will ultimately be mass-produced by some other means; it's a proof-of-concept process that can save manufacturers a lot of money by identifying problems or errors before going into production.

For the hobbyist, it does have some advantages, but not nearly as many as some claim. Remember that, first and foremost, it's not a means of mass-production; the objects are rendered one at a time, and quite slowly, I hasten to add. For these reasons alone it's virtually useless as a manufacturing process. For very limited runs of particular or unusual items, it may be fine (depending on the type of item), but production volume aside, resolution issues prevent it from becoming the panacea some regard it as being.

[wm3798]

I see it as an opportunity to broaden the scope of materials available to scratch builders, not so much a "replacement" for whole kits.  While it's fascinating to see what's possible with something like the White Tower project, it's also clear there are some real shortcomings.  The biggest obstacle I see to any sort of fully rendered model is the stepping that is (so far) inherent with the process.  The White Towers I'm familiar with were all clad in some sort of the painted metal siding, which is a smooth surface, yet the RP model, no matter how much you sand it, still comes out looking like stucco.  And while the really fine bits are incredible to behold, they can be a little tricky to paint and assemble without the most extreme care.

On the other hand, as I discovered with my Cumberland Station windows, sometimes there's no other practical way to get something produced uniformly and in large numbers other than through CAD and computer assisted "printing"... (in this case it was a Silhouette cutter).  The cool part is the stuff rendered doesn't have to be mass produced.  And once the artwork is done, short runs of a couple of pieces can be done very economically.

In previous lifetimes, if you were modeling a signature prototype building, you either had to compromise some design element to work with castings that were commercially available, painstakingly scratch build every window, or use some process like resin casting, that can be a little spotty when it comes to fine work like windows and doors.

I don't think we're anywhere near the stage where every hobbyist has the skills or the equipment to bring these things to light, but if you look at the collaborative community we have here, I think you're looking at the future of the hobby.

Instantaneous communication to discuss the challenges and solutions of a project.
Instantaneous access to prototype information via the internet
Communities of modelers where each brings his own specialty and resources to the table, and either through barter or transaction, everyone scratches everyone else's back...

As those circles are ever widening, with more and more people gaining access to this type of network, more people can work together to achieve their own individual goals.  There are no longer geographic limits, the need for extensive libraries, or even particular skill sets.

It's really a groovy time to be a model railroader, baby!

Lee

[Nato]

            It is having an impacct in some small ways,now if I want an exact scale sized model of my own house, or Aunt Martha if I can measure her and can  cad draw I may have one. I agree with David though that it may be only a small part of the hobby.It is a real interesting feeling though after ordering body shells from a Shapeways Store to get the E Mail "Your Product is now being manufactured","we will notify when it is being shipped,so you can track it." Like the 1950" where if you wanted to you could go to Detroit after ordering your new Ford Customline at a local dealer.watch it get built,then drive it home. Nate Goodman (Nato).

[MVW]

I think Lee raises some interesting points regarding the collaborative opportunities provided by the internet and communities such as this, in regards to RP.

Or maybe he's just a starry-eyed dreamer. 

Jim

[bbussey]

Will it obsolete the scratchbuilding/kitbashing and mass-market methods currently in practice?  No.  Will it enhance them?  Yes.

I never look at any two mediums as an either/or proposition.  The White Tower is unique from the standpoint in that I'm using the one medium to produce the finished product.  It was more of responding to the challenge of "can it be done" more than anything else.  But, as will be seen with some of the ESM specialty items coming down the road, I much prefer taking the best elements of all mediums and combining them to get the models I want.  The X58 is a prime example of that on the mass-market scale, with half the coupler pocket being etched brass to simulate extended draft gear that wouldn't look too bulky.  On the modeling front I would be more than happy, for example, to use the plastic cab/nose of an InterMountain FP9, an XHD rapid prototype core body, etched brass body overlays, Archer rivets, and Atlas/InterMountain plastic EMD hood unit roof details to fabricate a New Haven FL9 body.  As with all the mediums, I look at RP as the means to an end, not as the end-all.

[TiVoPrince]

No
more than etched parts.  Eventually that ability filtred down to the home user with a Micro Mark kit available to widen the market.  Making decals was once a dream that eventuallycame to pass.  Cutting parts with a robotic cutter does not diminish the results in any way. 

The race here as I see it is how it comes about, initially these jobs are sent out to shops seeking to fill in production time.  The falling prices of the production machinery will mean there will be more options as time goes on.  The day when a breadbox sized 3D printer is affordable seems not that far away.  The speed/detail factor will be very interesting as this plays out.

Skill is what individuals apply to the task at hand.  Talent to use a particular tool whether it be an X-Acto knife, soldering equiptment or a computer is all the same and it should not be thought less of because it is new-fangled.  Model railroders show an uncanny ability to re-purpose tools and products from a variety of sources...

[lock4244]

Assuming the quality of the output gets up to or near the level of RTR stuff (or what a talented modeler can do the scratch built way), then yes, I think the change will be immense. Imagine you need a fleet of NSC barrel ore cars and you lack the skills to scratch build and/or the time to build 50 or so cars. If you can get the drawings done, then you can have a run of cars done for you or a master to cast. Sure, some assembly required, but better than what exists now.

I've been watching the RP developments from the sidelines and have one of Brian's White Tower kits, largely to see what all the fuss is about. Very impressive and frankly, I find the detail of Brian's offering to be quite remarkable. Given time, this could signal a shift in the model marketplace and perhaps do to traditional model kits what the rifle did to the longbow or TV to intelligence.

[wm3798]

I want to have a couple of auto frame loads for my 89' flat cars.  It's stuff like that that I think is ideal for this process...  It's relatively fine, has lots of angles and holes, so resin casting is out of the question, It's very 3-D, so etched brass wouldn't work well, (not to mention the weight!)  and I don't think there's a way to do it as a plastic kit economically.

I see them being CADded up, pooped out on a platter, shot with red oxide, and loaded on the car.
http://www.bgtrainworld.com/storefront/images/JJM001.jpg

I'd only need about two cars worth, so a purchase price of $20-$30 wouldn't be obscene provided the ease of installation and quality of appearance was there.  The individual frames would be small enough that any stepping would be essentially invisible.  And given the 3-D capabilities, all of the blocking and bracing could be integral to the load.

Clearly, full structures will be a hard sell at a high price, but stuff like this I would think, would do pretty well.  Now if one of you wizards pursue this, I expect a free sample (or three!!)

Lee

[Iain]

I'm thinking hard to make items will be the forte.  Take, for instance, truck frames.  They can be rather difficult to scratchbuild and not be too delicate.

[Hyperion]

I want to have a couple of auto frame loads for my 89' flat cars. 
....
 Now if one of you wizards pursue this, I expect a free sample (or three!!)

Lee

Someone already did.

I've got several loads of these from Shapeways.  They're pretty nice.  But they're EXTREMELY fragile.  It was literally difficult to so much as pick them up without breaking them in pieces.