Ntrak specs, and the deliberate ignoring of them.

[Sokramiketes]

As for risk of Plywood Plains: I'm of the mind that a module isn't show-ready until the majority of the scenery has been done. But remember: I run my equipment off the wire. Without wire, the equipment won't run. So each module has to be completed to at *least* the catenary stage before I'll include it in a setup. And typically the wire is one of the last things to be installed on any given module.

Plywood plains in that the scenery is too flat because it's too easy to use the plywood surface as the lowest point... only hills are added from the base.  It's noticeable on Ntrak layouts given their standard 1x4 and plywood top construction methods.

Railroads should be a balance of cut AND fill.   

[Hiroe]

Plywood plains in that the scenery is too flat because it's too easy to use the plywood surface as the lowest point... only hills are added from the base.  It's noticeable on Ntrak layouts given their standard 1x4 and plywood top construction methods.

Railroads should be a balance of cut AND fill.   

Be that as it may; but keep in mind that I'm modeling actual prototype locations. If the real-life terrain doesn't drop significantly below track level anywhere in the area modeled, who is to say that's incorrect?

[lashedup]

Be *that* as it may, I've yet to see a railroad anywhere that doesn't have some terrain variation. 

Intermodal yards being one exception that I can think of, but even those need proper drainage somewhere. I think Mike is just trying to help you head off any potential pitfalls later on. Bill Denton had flat tops on his modules and found that adding some elevation changes (even subtle ones) was a challenge.  Even the typical midwestern scenery we work on (most people expect it to be flat farmlands) has a bit of variation and that's what adds some drama and realism to the modules and definitely separates it from what you typically see in modular layouts. Being able to both rise and fall with the terrain adds great depth to the scene.

Looking forward to seeing your progress.

-jamie

[Hiroe]

North of 49th street, a change in framing design will be necessitated as I approach the Schuylkill river. South of 49th street, the railroad actually runs in a cut that is well below prevailing grade. The cross street bridges are all flat, as street level is high enough that there's sufficient clearance under them.

[Nato]

       Hiroe, Nice work so far on your framing.Modular "Club" layouts are always works in progress. Some club standards are needed discribing to what level of completion a module should be in before inclusion in the layout and there should be atleast yearly changes to a module or it is out. The Wasatch N Scale group I currently belong to has 5 completed modules,three that are semi-complete,and two new plywood plains,that are necessary to our new configuration so will be allowed as work progresses. Remember some train shows (a good example the Hostlers Show each March in Ogden,Utah) can disqualify a layout if they see lack of progress from year to year,also can dictate if a layout gets a prime show display spot,bacause it is more finished then another clubs work. Nate Goodman (Nato).

[Hiroe]

      Hiroe, Nice work so far on your framing. Modular "Club" layouts are always works in progress. Some club standards are needed describing to what level of completion a module should be in before inclusion in the layout and there should be atleast yearly changes to a module or it is out. The Wasatch N Scale group I currently belong to has 5 completed modules,three that are semi-complete,and two new plywood plains,that are necessary to our new configuration so will be allowed as work progresses. Remember some train shows (a good example the Hostlers Show each March in Ogden,Utah) can disqualify a layout if they see lack of progress from year to year,also can dictate if a layout gets a prime show display spot,bacause it is more finished then another clubs work. Nate Goodman (Nato).

Thanks! They are indeed.
Interesting policy. However, something of that nature isn't common in any of the modular clubs/shows I've been to; and I worry that it would serve only to discourage any who might be up for participating (including me). While it might work for some groups/shows, I do not think it's a policy I would welcome. Encouraging progress is something I believe in; but mandating it under threat of expulsion is another thing entirely.

[Hiroe]

But if you don't elevate the track above the plywood top then how are you going to model ditches, underpasses, streams, etc?  The spline allows 2" of convenient foam height to carve for these scenic features below standard track level.  Otherwise there's a risk of the plywood plains appearing again.

I just realized precisely what you're on about here, and why you're so determined that I do it the same way you do: You want to be able to count my Heavy Electric Pennsy modules as part of your Modutrack standard. That's fine. Consider them so, with some minor detail changes:
1) All of my modules will have a 4+track mainline. (It's what I'm modeling.)
2) The placement of those four tracks on the module is centered as a group, so that I can spin any given module 180* and still have the edges line up. (The symmetry is pleasing to me.)
3) My framing may not always be quite as deep. (Every inch saved below the rail height is one less inch needed in the car.)
4) Some of my modules may incorporate gentle curves or shifts in the track centerline. (I can either build them in useful measurements, like a 2' setback over 10 feet; or in useful angles, like 30*.)

Much like building adapter modules for using them with Ntrak, I would be happy to build some to mate with Modutrack, if my variance is too significant.

The track wiring has color designations, but we don't refer to the tracks themselves by color.

Has anyone codified the wiring specs? I'd need to know what connectors you're using, how they're arranged, and how interconnections from end to end are handled.

The MaRRs standard seems to have each joining track wired to a respective PowerPole connector, with the center piece of flex between the ends isolated by switches. That strikes me as a lot of additional work installing switches and insulating rail joiners. Hopefully Modutrak did it differently?

[Zox]

The MaRRs standard seems to have each joining track wired to a respective PowerPole connector, with the center piece of flex between the ends isolated by switches. That strikes me as a lot of additional work installing switches and insulating rail joiners. Hopefully Modutrak did it differently?

Smart-N (the MARRS standard) doesn't require isolation, except between main lines.

Elsewhere, isolated blocks are merely recommended. We run DC, and the more places we can hold a train, the better. If we were using DCC, we probably wouldn't include the recommendation.

(And in reality, most of our members don't bother anyway.)

[Hiroe]

Smart-N (the MARRS standard) doesn't require isolation, except between main lines.

Elsewhere, isolated blocks are merely recommended. We run DC, and the more places we can hold a train, the better. If we were using DCC, we probably wouldn't include the recommendation.

(And in reality, most of our members don't bother anyway.)

Ahh, fair enough. I'll be using DCC exclusively, so I'm not too worried about isolated blocks.

[Sokramiketes]

I just realized precisely what you're on about here, and why you're so determined that I do it the same way you do: You want to be able to count my Heavy Electric Pennsy modules as part of your Modutrack standard. That's fine. Consider them so, with some minor detail changes:
1) All of my modules will have a 4+track mainline. (It's what I'm modeling.)
2) The placement of those four tracks on the module is centered as a group, so that I can spin any given module 180* and still have the edges line up. (The symmetry is pleasing to me.)
3) My framing may not always be quite as deep. (Every inch saved below the rail height is one less inch needed in the car.)
4) Some of my modules may incorporate gentle curves or shifts in the track centerline. (I can either build them in useful measurements, like a 2' setback over 10 feet; or in useful angles, like 30*.)

Much like building adapter modules for using them with Ntrak, I would be happy to build some to mate with Modutrack, if my variance is too significant.

Has anyone codified the wiring specs? I'd need to know what connectors you're using, how they're arranged, and how interconnections from end to end are handled.

The MaRRs standard seems to have each joining track wired to a respective PowerPole connector, with the center piece of flex between the ends isolated by switches. That strikes me as a lot of additional work installing switches and insulating rail joiners. Hopefully Modutrak did it differently?

Sorry dude, just trying to help streamline your efforts by sharing our experiences.  Carry on.

[Hiroe]

Sorry dude, just trying to help streamline your efforts by sharing our experiences.  Carry on.

It's cool? I just like people to be up front about their agenda (although I do get that not everyone may realize they have one). Human nature being what it is, we all like to have our decisions agreed upon by others. This is even reflected in your slogan "Better Modeling through Peer Pressure."

I'd still like to know about the Modutrak electrical specs, if you're legitimately interested in sharing them.

[Sokramiketes]

It's cool? I just like people to be up front about their agenda (although I do get that not everyone may realize they have one). Human nature being what it is, we all like to have our decisions agreed upon by others. This is even reflected in your slogan "Better Modeling through Peer Pressure."

I'd still like to know about the Modutrak electrical specs, if you're legitimately interested in sharing them.

In order to accommodate signaling and block detection without needing a detector on each module we run three wires per mainline.  One common, one detected power, and one non-detected power.  Add in a couple wire pairs for tortoise power, accessory power, and lighting power and we chose a 12-pin Molex connector.  Wiring is tucked flat under the modules with a female molex at both ends.  (no hanging wiring to catch)  ~1ft long jumper cables with male molex connectors are used to join the modules.  On the module itself the main bus is terminated through a cinch terminal strip. 

Here's a module with track and tortoise wiring completed:


And electrified territory is a ways off for Modutrak since we haven't made it to the Twin Cities yet on our way west.  PRR electrified would cramp our style so you can keep that to yourself. 

[lashedup]

It's cool? I just like people to be up front about their agenda (although I do get that not everyone may realize they have one). Human nature being what it is, we all like to have our decisions agreed upon by others. This is even reflected in your slogan "Better Modeling through Peer Pressure."

I'd still like to know about the Modutrak electrical specs, if you're legitimately interested in sharing them.

Honestly, I don't think Mike had any agenda other than pointing out that it is easier to build in some elevation into the road bed so that you can make the terrain rise and fall. Whether you use a 2" rise like Modutrak or not doesn't matter. I can't think of any time we have ever tried to make someone use our standards and we've done very little to try and publish specs to encourage anyone. We just try and pass along our experiences to try and help other people.

- Jamie

[robert3985]

I only could read about half of what was written before it started reminding me of the same contortions several of us here in Utah went through while attempting to compromise with Ntrak standards and satisfy our desire for more realistic scenery, actual operation and utilizing both state-of-the-art and traditional construction methods.

In the end and after a decade and a half of attempting to compromise with Ntrak standards, we decided to strike out on our own and develop our own standards, both inventing and borrowing from other modular groups and traditional non-portable layout design and construction ideas.   

I will be the first to admit that Ntrak is a great ambassador for bringing many people into the N-scale community, but many modelers who start out in Ntrak decide eventually that Ntrak standards will not allow them to model their trains and scenery the way they want to, which is usually in a more prototypical and operating direction.

N scale modelers in Utah have formed up into several groups and clubs and we are friendly with each other.  The latest N-scale standard here is known as "F-Units" and is designed to please and attract model railroaders, not little kids.  There are plenty of groups out there who cater to little kids, but very few who cater to the railroad modelers. 

F-Units brings both single-level home layout design and portable modular design together to allow a home layout to be easily broken down and transported to a show and coupled up with another individual who models the same standard.

F-Units basic standards are: 52" railhead to floor height, double track mainlines w/first track 10.5" from the front edge, superelevation, basic module size of 3' x 6', ME code 55 mainline flex, Atlas 55 turnouts (7.5's and 10's) or handlaid (larger than #6's) NMRA Standards turnouts, 1.5" center to center track spacing at module ends, no connecting tracks between modules (tracks come clear to the edge and are unfastened for 6" inward), 24" minimum visible mainline radius, ME code 40 flex and hand-laid code 40 turnouts for sidings, industrial trackage and branchlines, lightweight and sturdy L-girder construction with integral folding legs, common hardware for ease of setup (setup tools are all the same for everybody's modules!), splined Masonite subroadbed (except for yards), 14" above railhead height skyboards,  Digitrax DCC only, and operation from the front only.  Those are the basic standards and the first set-up will be at the 2012 March Hostlers Show at the Ogden Union Station on the first weekend in March.  Initial layout size is 38' X 18' with at least half of the modules being set up back to back.  The module construction standards encourage flowing front fascias using two layers of laminated 1/8" Masonite.  The top of the skyboard is 66", so there is no operation possible from the back.

Ntrak standards that were kept (as well as I can remember) are the center to center track measurement, the 24" minimum radius, and most of the DCC bus and feeder wiring standards, as well as "red" and "yellow" track nomenclature.

I'll post photos of the setup after the March show.

Bob Gilmore

[John]

Bob .. looking forward to seeing the pictures ..