Illinois Central/Canadian National in N scale

[nscalemike]

Finally an update!  I wanted to take some pictures before the holiday so I could have this posted prior to the long weekend, but things have been very busy around here.  I have the branch line track almost complete.  I am still debating my depth/reach issues around the propsed ethanol plant, and working on some spur arrangements on the right side of the plan, but the main is in, the paper mill is done, and trains have been running!  Here is a quick photo tour of what I have right now:


The local arrives off the main line.  A backing move is required to enter the branch, then it pulls straight out when complete


The local arrives on the main.  To the left is a short runaround, then a few industry tracks.


Providing power today, CN #6409 runs around to the rear of the train, grabs the caboose and the LPG car to go switch the first industry.


Now at the LPG dealer, the crew has already pulled the empty car and is setting out the loaded tanker.  They will pick up the empty and tack it back on the end of the train.


With the caboose and the empty tanker sitting back on the main, 6409 has picked up the rest of the train, an empty boxcar and loaded plastic pellet car, to switch out the front industry. 


With the little amount of work required today, the crew is finished, has the train reassembled, and ready to head back home.

Meanwhile, at the other end of the branch GTW #4910 is on loan to the paper company.  There plant switcher has not been purchased yet, and the budget may not allow the CEO to buy one for a few more months!


An overview of the plant, up front is the scrap paper inbound track.


A quick mockup of the paper machine building and the warehouse has been constructed out of foam board.  The railbox car was an extra on yesterdays train and is waiting to be switched inside for loading. 


Here the crew is pulling the loaded cut out of door #2.

The crew will start to assemble the outbound train on the main line and pick up the empties that were dropped off on the storage tracks this morning.  There are also box cars loaded with scrap paper on the storage track, which will be swapped out with the now empty ones sitting on the receiving track:


That's all for now.  Work has been progressing but at a very slow pace.  My plans are to hopefully get the backdrop painted this week and I would like to finish the paper mill mockup.  I also want to fire up the air brush and do some weathering, but that may wait.  I have family come a couple weeks, and would love to have fasica on this area by then too, however, have a lot of household projects I need to finish by then though so it probably won't happen.

Thanks for reading!
Mike

[Bendtracker1]

Mike,
That looks awesome!

In the one picture, you have level setting on bracket, are you going to have a light canopy over this section?

Nice work!  Looking forward to more pictures.

[nscalemike]

Mike,
That looks awesome!

In the one picture, you have level setting on bracket, are you going to have a light canopy over this section?

Nice work!  Looking forward to more pictures.

Thanks Allen!  Appreciate the feedback.   Yes, my plan is to deck the brackets with plywood for storage above and the branch will be lit like the main layout area.  When I get that work done I will photo document it and post the lighting design.

[GaryHinshaw]

Very nice progress!  Are those cork tiles under the paper plant?

-Gary

[esa123]

Great to see your progress! I love the sequence shots and can totally identify with the slow pace/household projects plan that eats up train time! Best of luck as I look forward to your next report!

Erik

[nscalemike]

Help!!!  I am having one of those crazy thoughts!

I am seriously considering starting over layout construction.  Over the last couple of weeks I have had thoughts on this a few times and I feel if starting over is the right decision now is the time to do so before I make it any further. 

Let me say this, I like the general idea behind what I have.  I don't like the helix, not because of the helix itself as it operates smoothly, but rather the amount of space it takes up and the amount of time it takes to travel from one level to the next relative to the amount of time spent on each level.  I like my newly constructed branch line and run trains on it often since its been done.  I like the thought of future continuous run, but can't see myself using it much and I like the long main line, although over half of it is in the helix.

The problem that I have had, which is the same as what I had prior to initial construction, is how do I get a long mainline in with ample staging, hopefully with continious running, in my odd shaped room?  (I say odd shaped, not really odd just not ideal train room size, ~20X7.5)

So, today, in a rare moment of genius, I had an idea:


Single level layout, with a double decked branch line in the center.  No continious running, no way to turn trains, but maybe an long enough main line run that I will be ready to run something else by the time it gets to the other end.  I think I have about 50' main line, so I think I can have between 8-10" seperation on the staging and only have a 1.3-1.7% grade.  Double decked staging with low overhead shouldn't be a huge problem, because I think it would be only about a foot deep and open on both sides, so a 6" reach in max. 

What I lose/possible negs:
-the obvious of having to start over.  Should be able to save almost everything but cork though
-continious running
-isolated branch line (thought about a way that I could still incorporate an isolated branch on top of the staging, but I don't know how I could access it.)
-cramped area for my workbench, however, I've been happy with it under the branch line so far
-only about a foot deep layout due to the narrowness of the room
-only 2.5' aisle space

What I can keep/possible advantages:
-get rid of the helix but still have about the same length of visible mainline (about 50')
-no duck under, will construct a swing down gate over the doorway
-long main line
-staging in the center could break up the room and make the layout feel larger (now you stand in the center and in about 30 seconds you can see the whole thing)

Other thoughts I've had include the fact that my second level is good viewing level but a little higher than I'd like to operate on and access to the staging will be difficult due to it's height.  Also, I have determined that I will be a solo operater as long as I stay in this area.  It's been 1 year in this house and 7 years in this city and no railroading interest located.  Most I have ever have will be 1 or 2 other people, so I don't think I want to design a layout that will REQIUIRE additional operators.  (I designed what I had for more than one, and I feel it is too difficult to operate in the vision that I had for it by myself.)

I'm also thinking that having one level will open up the look of the room and I can have a greater amount of space between the layout and the light canopy.  Currently, in my poor planing, I do not have the verticle space for even a grain elevator!

So, if I proceed with this change, I have new requirements:
-Still want relative modern main line running
-If I don't figure out a way to incorporate a branch line over the staging, then I want online industries to switch, without having the Lance Mindheim switching layout feel (I love his modeling, just want a main line!)
-interchange of some sort, either big enough to actually switch, or a working interchange if possible
-something I can operate myself but also with one or two extras if the occasion arises
-no main line helix (a small one to access only a branch could be acceptable)
-maybe a yard maybe not.  If I do a yard, I think I would lean more towards something just to build/break local trains, not a major classification yard.
(list may continue)

What do you all think?  Am I crazy or should I address concerns I have now and hopefully still get what I ultimately want out of my layout?  Any plan ideas?

I have developed a great deal of respect for the RW community.  I am certain had I been a member here prior to construction of this layout I would not be having this post today, but I wasn't and I've learned a lot over the last year and half of building and the last 9 months on the forum and I feel that I can do better with your input.  I'm not afraid of starting over, as like I said I should be able to reuse most items and cost will be small.  But I also want a solid footing if I do begin again!

As always, thanks for your thoughts and I look forward to hearing about them!
Mike

[nscalemike]

I played with Anyrail tonight and came up with a rough draft to start.  Basically, it's a main line with a passing track and the throat of the staging yard, what the 50 item trial version allows!



I determined that I can fit 10 tracks on the 1' deep center staging yard area, and if I put both ends on the same level that gives me 5 for each direction.  That would probably be enough, or I could make this about 14" wide and fit 12. 

I don't know how to lay the main out, can't decide if I want to include a yard, and haven't even began to think about any industries, but as drawn right now I have 48 feet of main line which is within 2-3 feet of what I have now, not including the helix or branch line.  So my goal of a long main line is the same here without the 'what feels like forever' helix trackage.

Maybe this will be the best decision in the long run.  Jury is still out, gonna see what develops plan wise first.

Mike

[nscalemike]

Bought the full version of Anyrail, so now I can say I've invested money in this pursuit to rebuild, but still haven't decided if I should or shouldn't yet.

Some brainstorming this morning has helped to develop this:


If I did my math right, I can start at 0" elevation in the lower staging yard, the upper staging yard can be 4", and a branch line could still sit above at 8".  I think if I climb from 0" to begin and reach 6" where the turnout is for the branch, then continue to climb the branch up to 8" while dropping the main to the upper staging yard at 4", I can get about a 1.75% grade, which I believe would be ok.

Any thoughts?
Mike

[GaryHinshaw]

Well, I have a lot of questions about the new concept, but prior to asking them, I'll say you shouldn't hesitate to make changes if you're not happy with the present setup.  I definitely hear lots of complaints about helices being time hogs (more than space hogs)  so I understand where you're coming from.  In addition, layout building is largely what this hobby is about, so all you lose by starting over is some of the money you put into non-reusable items.

That said, I'm not sure what you're proposing here.  From your initial sketch, I thought you were talking about a double-deck yard in the middle, connected by a nolix around the walls, but your Anyrail sketch looks like a flat plan with side-by-side staging.  Those are rather different propositions.

I'm also curious about what your current layout footprint looks like.  I was picturing your space as something quite different from this 20' x 7.5' room.  Is the branch line you've been showing us located in this room, or an adjacent one?

Lastly, given the negatives I've heard about main line helices, I decided to make my own helix a part of the staging complex itself.  It will form the south end of my main line and in normal ops, southbound trains would terminate in it.  You might want to think if it makes sense to do something similar in your case.

Cheers,
Gary

[nscalemike]

Thanks Gary, I like the questions, keeps the thought process going, get new ideas, and helps to narrow down the ultimate goal! 

From your initial sketch, I thought you were talking about a double-deck yard in the middle, connected by a nolix around the walls, but your Anyrail sketch looks like a flat plan with side-by-side staging.  Those are rather different propositions.

Short answer, yes.  The initial sketch was double decked staging.  When I started playing with scale drawings in Anyrail I found I could fit 10 track staging on one level that is fed in from both directions.  I see advantages to both the double deck and the flat staging.  No grade has the initial appeal of less problems due to the elevation changes, but the slight grade has an appeal of being not flat.  Open to ideas on what could be accomplished with each and won't turn a good plan that I like down just because of the staging yard design. 

I'm also curious about what your current layout footprint looks like.  I was picturing your space as something quite different from this 20' x 7.5' room.  Is the branch line you've been showing us located in this room, or an adjacent one?

Nope, its all together.  The room is the big rectangle, but I divided it for the original design.  My thoughts initially was I did not want to block the doorway with layout benchwork.  I also wanted to have the workbench open.  Thats how I came to having the branch line outside of the main layout, but in the same room.  Since I've done some building, I am not much more comfortable with having a drop down gate over the door.  I put one in to access the main layout and it works great.  I am also very ok with the layout going over the workbench, which the branch line does now. 

Lastly, given the negatives I've heard about main line helices, I decided to make my own helix a part of the staging complex itself.  It will form the south end of my main line and in normal ops, southbound trains would terminate in it.  You might want to think if it makes sense to do something similar in your case.

I've also seen this done, but I think with the changes I'm looking at no helix will be required so hopefully I can save the space that it takes up.


Hope this helps to clarify those points!  Thanks for asking and I look forward to more thoughts!

Mike

[S Class]

I think if you're happy with 50' of min line then have the staging as 5 each per your original anyrail drawing and a with a connection to make the staging yard throat a wye, hey presto continuous running!

Another option if you want to add a bit of grade and length is have the train circling on the no-lix and by the time it gets around to the staging yard a agin just keep going around the room for another lap at a higher level, ether spaghetti bowl or with a serious enough gradient to provide clearance between decks.

I think with option 1 with the right construction a removable module can be positioned to serve as a branch line like your current incarnation, while option two would give space for more online industries or even the branch above the upper staging at nose hight.


This design has some serous potential.

[Bendtracker1]

If you want a longer mainline run, then as "S Class" stated, keep a single level, add a track so that you can have a"WYE" and then have the yard tracks grouped as one 10 track yard.  A continuous run would then possible.  To give the feel of a longer mainline run, make a loop before stopping at each industry/town. 

I would keep the industries online and since you say you would most likely be the only operator, create one road switch job that does all the work, or have that as your local.  It can make a run from the yard, around the layout in a counter clockwise direction serving all the trailing point industries and before it gets to the yard, have it stop and run around the train, then return in a clockwise direction serving what was the facing point industries on the trip out.  Basically, an Out and Back operation.  This is how I run my two locals.

I would keep the interchange as you have it for the most part, it can be another industry for the local/road job.  Again, this is how I have the ICG setup on my layout.   
http://thelittlerock.shutterfly.com/pictures/69#67
The siding that the ICG is setting on in the distance will be behind some buildings or trees, or something to somewhat disguise it.  You could do the same thing with yours.  Hide the left end [in your drawing] behind a building or false backdrop and leave the other end as you have drawn.

Of course you would need another siding on the bottom right of your drawing so you could run around your train.
In the same picture that I have linked to, you will also see on the right side, a small siding.  This is where the Winnfeild Turn does it's run around before heading back to El Dorado.

While your working the industries with your locals, you could turn a train loose and let it run the continuous loop.  If you have another body in the room, one could run the local and one could run the through trains for one loop and then swap it out for a different train that is staged in the yard, maybe in the other direction.

There are possibilities to your new plan.  You might need to figure what kind of operation you want before settling on a new plan.

Hope that helps a little.

[nscalemike]

At S Class's suggestion, I made a continuous loop connection on the staging yard end.  I also like Allen's idea of having a road switcher run the main and do the switching ops.  Allen, I've been studying your layout a lot over the last couple of days!  With some of these thoughts in mind, I have this plan in the works:



It is all level for the main line.  I elevated the interchange railroads track and made a grade interchange track.  If I choose to add additional switching ops over the staging yard, then it will be serviced by the second railroad and interchange with the main line.  It needs some work, but again, just throwing some ideas out there right now.

Mike

[nscalemike]

Welcome to the newly revised Canadian National in Illinois!  While there hasn't been a post, work has been progessing behind the scenes.  A special thanks to Allen for his assistance in this so far.  I think I have a solid foundation and would like to hear what others here think.

First, let me share some of the goals of the rebuild.  Still want to maintain continuous running if possible.  Urban local switching on a branch line and a rural mainline running.  Ample staging for longer trains.  No time consuming and space eating helix.  Live interchange capabilities.  Ability to operate solo majority of time but also able to support a few extra operators on occasion.

So here's the plan:



I was able to include many of my wishes.  It has point to point ops with continuous run ability.  Live interchange. What I believe is able to be ran solo and with others.  No helix and narrow shelves.  8' staging yard w/ engine facility.  Urban area and rural.  What I didn't get was a branch line but I made up for it with a heavily serviced town with long passing siding.  Also, no yard but places to sort cars in town and at the interchange.

Here is my op plan generally speaking.  The staging yard will hold 7 through trains.  They will include mixed freights, unit stack trains, coal train, Amtrak, etc.  For family/friend visits, or when I just want to 'watch the trains' I will send something out on the mainline and let it run.  At the bottom of the staging area, I have two tracks set out for the local and the interchange.  I will construct drawers under the layout and build the trains by hand.  My local will then leave the yard and proceed first to the interchange.  It will drop off the cars needed and pick up what is due to be set out in town today, leaving behind the cars that need to go to the yard.  The local proceeds into town, tying up on the passing siding for the incoming through train.  While they wait, the conductor organizes his paper work, check the days orders and briefs with the engineer.  When the local gets the clear, they will begin their duties.  The first task will be to check the temporary holding track for the cars that are currently there.  I expect that 1-6 industries will be served on any given shift.  The local will pull the temp cars, sort them with the incoming train, and get to work on the industries.  Orders will come in to have the passing siding clear for an arriving Amtrak, which will delay the work.  The crew will also need to be mindful of the 4 grade crossings in town, city ordinance prohibits the railroad from blocking them for any longer than necessary.  When the work is complete, the local will return, stopping at the interchange again to for another drop off and pick up what was left behind in the morning, then return to the yard.

Depending on time available, if I want to run the local I can run as short as a interchange turn, a special run to provide service to one industry, or longer to serve multiple industries.  Once the cars get out of the drawer and on the layout they will have a set destination, length or stay, and instruction on how to return the the drawer.  I don't expect repetition all that often. 

I will also have an opportunity to run foreign power on the interchange, dropping off/picking up cars.

In the next day or two, I'll follow up on the industries and their expected service.  Still needing to identify some industries, but will get that done soon. 

Until, I'd be interested to hear what think of this, on the right track, need to make track mods, ect.

Thanks for the thoughts!
Mike

[pwnj]

Overall, I think it looks pretty good.  Yard design is nice, but that tailpiece looks like it's going to get in the way, maybe even get broken.  I'm guessing you're going for realistic operation, allowing the locomotive to cut off and get around the cars.  Have you considered using a transfer table instead?