The Transcontinental PRR

[eric220]

They're #7's, which should be plenty broad for yard-speed freight.  All of the mainline crossovers are #10's.

The more I think about this, the more I think that the arrangement that we put in yesterday (with the turnouts on the main) should work alright.  I know it's not the most prototypical arrangement in the world, but it should work.

[Dave V]

Of course I've been following this project eagerly being the SPF I am.  I'm envious of the space, and think the overall layout design (i.e., substantial mainline connecting terminals on two different decks) is awesome.

I'm just stumbling a bit in visualizing the finished layout.  To me, understanding time and place is key for me to really "get" a layout as a concept, as a piece of the world in miniature.  I wonder with both coasts in the same basement, with wooded Pennsylvania mountains and golden California hills, with PRR GG1s and Challengers operating excursions amongst modern widecabs with double stacks, how one "absorbs" this as a cohesive whole.  Much backstory gets the viewer to the modern-day transcontinental PRR which, by the sole example of UP, has maintained its corporate identity (which is characteristically Eastern, somber, understated, unlike Western roads) in the face of mega merger.  More backstory is required for the inland port scene.

I just wonder how you will maintain a sense of place and time.  Even if you distinctly dual-era the layout (i.e., steam and GG1s only for 1950s, and modern stuff only for 2000s), the sight of your new K4 racing her Tuscan sleepers across the California grasslands would create at least some cognitive dissonance in most diehard railfans.  I see your space and see Philadelphia to Pittsburgh.  You have room even for Enola and Altoona division points if you put Camden/Philly and Conway as staging.  Make it modern day.  I think you could change that one variable (time) quite effectively and not create too much chaos.  I'm stumbling with the number of variables in this equation.  And as Lee pointed out, having both coasts in the same basement not only complicates operations, but almost precludes them.

Please don't take my comments as anything other than a friend's passing observation.  Remember, too, that I have but a racetrack on a door that operates as much like Pennsy as a shopping mall kiddie choo-choo does.  I have given much thought as to how (or even whether) to say this.  I will watch with earnest as you prove me completely wrong!

Long live Pennsy!   

[wcfn100]

They're #7's, which should be plenty broad for yard-speed freight. 

I know they're #7s.  I just don't see any reason they have to be.



Jason

[M.C. Fujiwara]

Of course I've been following this project eagerly being the SPF I am.  I'm envious of the space, and think the overall layout design (i.e., substantial mainline connecting terminals on two different decks) is awesome.

I'm just stumbling a bit in visualizing the finished layout.  To me, understanding time and place is key for me to really "get" a layout as a concept, as a piece of the world in miniature. 

Dave, I was thinking along similar lines until I actually stood in the layout space.
As Eric has said: this layout is about trains running through scenes.
And when you're in the space, with your focus on one level or another, on one section (L bend, U, peninsula, or straightaway) or another, you are focused on the scene before you.
There's a huge stretch of Pensy: Altoona engine service, yard, Horseshoe curve, some coal & industrial sections, all lower level and, while in sections, each section is within comfortable viewing range and so "flows" as one moves.
The end of the lower level ends at the farthest-west PRR station (Morrow, OH), so if you don't buy into the backstory, you still only need to suspend belief on the upper deck, and even then, those maroon coaches would make a great (ultimate?) excursion train through Colorado to California.
& when the prototype police show up, he can drop the Pensy power on the lower level and have UP or ? take them up the helix and go west, young man.

There are specific scenes Eric wants to model and have trains run through.
Many have sentimental / familial sentiments attached to them.
The way the room & benchwork is layed out allows him to do that.

If you back up all the way to the door, you'll see PA down left, CA up straight, OH down right & CO up right, but that will be very difficult to do once the helix gets put in.
Realistically, you'll be focused on the trains running through the scene in front of you (and some of those scenes stretch well nice).

So whether you buy into the PRR-takes-over-the-world story or not, the layout works pretty well for the space.
I have a raised-eyebrow about running 10-foot trains through 8-14' scenes ("this was Colorado, wasn't it?"), but photography-wise, it'll rock.

If Eric said: "this is a freelance coast-to-coast line" I bet it wouldn't be a problem.
But since he's using the PRR, we just have to beam aboard & go where no a$$hat has gone before.
(especially you East Coast Asshats: to the West Coast)

Like Melville with Moby Dick or Whitman with Leaves of Grass, Eric's attempting to make his layout as big as America.
[How's that for a blurb?  ]

Anyway, I think the connective tissue / tie-together-ness can manifest in many different ways.
I think Eric's layout will tie together as its own piece in time, but I can see where many can question the connective tissue now.

Just writing to say I hear you Dave, but the layout & space will work together to create some great scenes & fun ops.
So that's my 2 cents

[eric220]

Of course I've been following this project eagerly being the SPF I am.  I'm envious of the space, and think the overall layout design (i.e., substantial mainline connecting terminals on two different decks) is awesome.

I'm just stumbling a bit in visualizing the finished layout.  To me, understanding time and place is key for me to really "get" a layout as a concept, as a piece of the world in miniature...

Long live Pennsy!   

Well, I went to respond, but I got a warning that someone else had posted.  The MC summed it it pretty well.  As far as "time" is concerned, the layout and operations will be geared around the early 1950's.  I've got some modern stuff, but it's just for show; the GEVO's, Superliners/P42's, and ICE3-based high-speed train are intended to be run roundy-round just to drive the point home that the PRR is still around today.  I understand that I'm biting off a pretty big chunk here, and that in the end, it doesn't really "work" for die-hard railfans.  As I responded to Lee, I don't intend that the operations will actually mirror the geographic locations represented.  I want the industries to reflect the locations, but the fact that one local will serve both California and Colorado doesn't bother me.  That's the price I pay for being able to see representative scenes of the transcontinental PRR.  Until I win the lottery and have the space to build several division points spanning the continent, this will have to do.

Long live Pennsy!!!! 

I know they're #7s.  I just don't see any reason they have to be.



Jason

Minor correction, the lower line there is the edge of the benchwork, not a track.  There should be a single track main and two sidings.

I probably could have used #10's there, but the angle of the mainline down the ladder is based on a divergence of 1:7 from the wall.  In other words, changing to #10's means going all the way back to cutting a new piece of plywood.  In short, I just don't think it's worth it, between the loss in materials and the loss of length due to the more acute angle.

[wcfn100]

... but the angle of the mainline down the ladder is based on a divergence of 1:7 from the wall.

I know.  So is mine.   

You seem set on 7's, so enough of my rhetoric.

Jason

[John]

IMHO - I get what Eric is doing .. my own M&O has Baltimore, Wheeling, points in between, both real and imaginary, as well as Chicago, Bradenton Fl, Philly etc .. quite the stretch for the imagination .. I also have a couple of scenes that I wanted .. It's hard to fit it all in ..  sometimes you need an entire continent

[Dave V]

I'm very interested to see the scenery phase and how it all ties together.

Alternate history is not in and of itself an issue.  I think of Ed's alternate world whereby the PRR NCRR line is intact south of York in 1985 because in his world, Hurricane Agnes wiped out the C&PD line instead of the NCRR in 1972.  This has the effect of moving all of the C&PD's traffic between Enola and Baltimore over to the Northern Central.  Very believable, and not difficult for an SPF like me to swallow.  In fact, many of us prefer the historic and bucolic NCRR to the C&PD anyway, with its sharp curves and weight limits.

I will freely admit a large part of my "issue" is the baggage I bring as an SPF.  Each of us brings his own degree of modeler's license to the table.  Mine allows me to run some Pennsy foobies and to have 2 tracks in place of 4.  Yours allows a much greater degree of freedom.  Where it gets sticky is where it stops being Pennsy and starts being something completely different except in name.  In don't know yet where that line is.

Eric, thanks for hearing me out...  My opinion is, of course, only that, and should not affect how you have fun.  Hopefully no hard feelings?   

[seusscaboose]

i was thinking about Dave's comments "each of us brings his own baggage"... and it lead me to a parrallel thought of "we each grow at our own pace"...   IIRC Eric has been thinking this out for some time (on the web, on a module, etc.) and i think (as pointed out by M.C. and verified by Eric) the ultimate goal is to model certain scenes and possible operate some...

i think it does boil down to the ol' "do what ya want in the space that ya can" regurgitated discussions.  All that being said, I see Dave's point of "wrapping his head around it", especially when his persepctive has "baggage" associated with it 

I am not stating anything that has already been shaken out (i just like the thought provoking conversation)...  I know at my place, there are two roads (PRR/NKP) jammed from NYC to Chicago with a stop near Cumberland and Toledo...   i guess my point is...  i too have had thoughts about "how would i do it again"...   would i do a single division?  maybe.  would i do two distinct Divisions (one NKP and one PRR) and connect them somewhere in time/space?  maybe.

I know i sure wish i woulda thought it out more... or more precisely... "i wish i knew then, what i know now." 

But the different possibilities shown here (TRW) of "dual era", "general areas/Divisions" and "specific locations" has me pondering exactly (as Eric says) "how would i do it when i win the lottery"

and just when i think i got it all wrapped up in a nice bow... something else will come along.

as Charlie Brown says.  Good Grief.

  :

D

[eric220]

I know.  So is mine.   

You seem set on 7's, so enough of my rhetoric.

Jason

It's not that I'm totally set on them conceptually, it's more that they're already in. Changing them out is going to be a pain, so it's going to take some convincing to make me think it's worthwhile.

Eric, thanks for hearing me out...  My opinion is, of course, only that, and should not affect how you have fun.  Hopefully no hard feelings?   

Far from hard feelings, I think you've stirred up a very interesting discussion.

Seeing DGLE, Tuscan, and FCC in Colorado and California is one of the "givens" of this layout. I've been imagining what this version of history would look like for so long, and I want to try and bring some part of it to life. I know it's asking a lot for other people to take the plunge and really believe that what I propose is possible and believable, but in the end, it's my railroad.

As far as the scenes tying together, don't worry, I've got a better plan than N-Trak in the basement. There are four "scenes" that are depicted: Pennsylvania, Ohio, the mountains of Colorado, and the San Francisco Bay Area. There are two on each level. The transition on each level occurs at the end of the peninsula. There, I'm planning to "end" each scene with the trains going through the backdrop, and a full-height visual break. What I'm going for visually is that a visitor can stand and watch trains run through any one scene, and it should convey the idea of a working railroad. Trains enter the scene, do their work, and depart. I guess you could almost think of it as four interconnected layouts.

[John]

They do a pretty creditable job at the Chicago museum with their transitions .. so I think you can pull it off

[eric220]

Going back a couple of topics to the river crossing, Santa brought me a little something that might come in handy if I decide to scratch-build the bridge.

[pwnj]

Cuts paper and cardstock?  Ooooh.

[eric220]

Not just paper and card stock. Several members here have made cutting styrene with this machine an art.

[pwnj]

Styrene?!  FTW!