Horseshoe Curve

[inkaneer]

Regarding GG1's and K4 1361,  The GG1's had several factors working against them.  First was the cracking frames issue which apparently was the death knewll for them.  Second was the electrical equipment.  They used some nasty stuff in the electrical apparatus that are a no-no in today's EPA world.  Don't know if it was PCB's or what but they were an environmental catastrophe waiting to happen.

As for 1361 she was undergoing restoration at Steamtown for eventual return to running on steam power. However, despite additional funding by the State of Pennsylvania more and more problems were uncovered and stricter regulations governing boilers were introduced following th emishaps in Ohio with steam farm equipment.   Most of the restoration work was being done by volunteers with only a core of paid people were involved.  Work on the project ceased and the last word was that the engine would be moved from Steamtown to Altoona.  Whether it will be completely restored is questionable.  I heard via rumor mill that Norfolk Southern would not commit to allowing it to run on their trackage.  Can't say that for sure but that is the rumor.

[MichaelWinicki]

The first part was true but the second only partly so.  Prior to 1930 Pennsy did many feasibility studies on electrification and all of them said the same thing, the traffic west to Pittsburgh was great enough to make the investment in electrication infrastructure profitable.  At Pittsburgh, however the mainline split with the Ft. Wayne line going to Chicago and the Panhandle line going to St. Louis.  Traffic density on either line did not justify electrification.  With the development of the GG1 the Pennsy finally had the electric motor they needed to make it all work.  The plan was to move the PRR steam fleet west where grades were almost nonexistant.  With an abundance of displaced steam locomotives in the East, steam development was curtailed.  It all looked good on paper but what wasn't on paper was the economic catastrophe called the great depression and WWII.  With dwindling traffic the electrification stopped at Harrisburg.  Traffic only caught up during WWII and by that time the electrification was not a war time priority so PRR could not electrify.   Pennsy's steam fleet worked their guts out hauling wartime supplies to East coast ports.  After the war with worn out steam engines Pennsy went into dieselization big time.  Even then feasibility studies showed electrification would be marginally profitable.  But with advances in diesel locomotives any idea of electrification from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh was shelved.  

Interesting post.

You mention the abundance of displaced steamers.

During the depression, the PRR had 32 steamers stored around the local roundhouse.  Where ever there was a spare section of track they parked a steam locomotive.  Many of which weren't moved again for several years.

[eric220]

since we are on the topic of what if electrification, and he seems to be using GG1s in modern times, I want to ask a question that has been a long standing arguement.

we know that the GG1's for the most part had their transformers drained, and removed. My buddy says that the ones that have the transformers in place still, they are filled with dirt?!?! (dunno if that is true or not)

ANYWAYS, the big question was about the feasiblility of seeing a GG1 running under its own power now a days. he insists that all that needs to be done is refill the transformers and you would be good to go. I say that the transformers need to be totally replaced, all the electrical will need to be upgraded, and the traction motors, (or quill drives I don't remember what the GG1's had) would have to be gone though and upgraded. The other thing I always argue is that even if they did all that, they would still have modify them to the diffrent current on the NEC.

so who is right here? and what is the story that eric uses to keep the GG1s running?

For clarification, I took a page from Dave V's book. I operate both a 1950 fleet and a modern fleet. I might have a restored GG1 operating in modern times, but it would be part of a heritage program. My understanding is that between the frames cracking, the toxic transformers, and AMTRAK changing the juice on the lines, these beasts are confined to static display. I think it would be a lot less expensive, and get a much better result, to build a recreation. That, and I don't see many people tolerating someone cutting holes for ditch lights in Old Riverts' nose.

As to steam running on NS track, my understanding is, "ain't gonna happen." I believe that they currently have a corporate policy in place forbidding operation of steam locomotives on their tracks. From management's perspective, I can understand the decision; steam locomotives are not exactly gentle on tracks.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if you see some steam coming to NS. They're in the middle of a program with the TVRM (I think) to do some limited steam PR stuff.

CSX, on the other hand... no way, no how.

They're two COMPLETELY different companies. Night and day.

[wcfn100]

Not to be dense, and heaven forbid I post on topic, but will using those wide curves leave enough space for scenery?  I know you eastern guys love your vertical puffball walls, but it's not fooling anyone.  I think it's just something you all agreed to accept and never talk about again.


Jason

[Ed Kapuscinski]

That's a good point, honestly. I was thinking the same thing the other day before getting distracted.

Eric, I think you definitely need to leave some room behind the tracks for scenery, do it right, include drainage, etc... it makes a HUGE difference in the final appearance.

[wazzou]

PSG1790 would not approve.  ;D

[AlkemScaleModels]

JD is using about a 30-36 inch radius on his HS Curve layout. It looks pretty good. It takes about 30 cars to wrap around the curve.  http://prrhc.blogspot.com/

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Awww, but he's cheating and using clump foliage on the top.

[MichaelWinicki]

Not to be dense, and heaven forbid I post on topic, but will using those wide curves leave enough space for scenery?  I know you eastern guys love your vertical puffball walls, but it's not fooling anyone.  I think it's just something you all agreed to accept and never talk about again.


Jason

LOL!

Not all of us "easterners" are into the puffball solution.  

[AlkemScaleModels]

Awww, but he's cheating and using clump foliage on the top.

Looks pretty good.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

I don't know...

http://thecrhs.org/Images/CR-3254-at-Horseshoe-Curve
http://thecrhs.org/Images/CR-3323-Horseshoe-Curve-PA-5281978

Now, granted, there was less vegetation in the 50s, but still, there's more verticality to it than the clump foliage will provide. It needs trunks man!

[davefoxx]

I don't know...

http://thecrhs.org/Images/CR-3254-at-Horseshoe-Curve
http://thecrhs.org/Images/CR-3323-Horseshoe-Curve-PA-5281978

Now, granted, there was less vegetation in the 50s, but still, there's more verticality to it than the clump foliage will provide. It needs trunks man!

+1.  At least the first row or two of trees needs trunks.  Ed's right about the verticality.

[MichaelWinicki]

I don't know...

http://thecrhs.org/Images/CR-3254-at-Horseshoe-Curve
http://thecrhs.org/Images/CR-3323-Horseshoe-Curve-PA-5281978

Now, granted, there was less vegetation in the 50s, but still, there's more verticality to it than the clump foliage will provide. It needs trunks man!

Good point.

The problem with using clump foliage or puff balls is that there's no varying texture.  The look is too uniform from top to bottom.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

I actually just figured out a trick to that...

I'm working on fixing up an old NTRAK module that needs a bunch of trees. We're using the trunked variety where we can, but there was one big hillside that would've just eaten them.

So what we did was put down a layer of regular coarse turf, then we're layering clump foliage on top of it to give a texture. It's not bad.

I wouldn't use it on my home stuff (as I'm trying to push the limit there, and don't mind sinking money into Super Trees to do it), but for something that's essentially "negative space" between other modules, it's working pretty well, although I plan on adding in some more.



That said, for something that's a centerpiece, like HSC, I'd say go all the way. The Super Trees really, REALLY changed the look of Dave's Juniata Division, and I think breathed a lot of new life into it.