1615 Layout Planning: First draft with Track

[Ed Kapuscinski]

So lets think about something else. Lee's mention of the industrial stuff seems interesting, so let's go down that route...

In the current plan I had actually not planned on being TOO heavily focused on industrial switching (I know, this seems strange for me). I wanted to try and capture Mainline Conrail stuff that I simply wasn't able to do on the door. I was wanting somewhere to give my SD40-2 fleet (ha!) a run. If I do something more industrial in the area, I think I could end up using the space in a much more fulfilling (maybe) way. The problem with that though, is that I really like the feeling of it it being "part of a system", doing things like traffic modeling, etc... and a branchline doesn't do that.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

I meant in the helix where visiblity isn't an issue. I was thinking an elongated helix with a smaller inside radius with a foot or so of straights between curves on the left side to give you an easier grade, but not take up as much space width wise. You should definitely double track the helix as when I had helices in my plan on XtrckCad and ran some trains on it, at 30/40 scale mph, it would take 2 1/2 minutes to traverse at  6/7 lap helix and that could become the choke point of the line,

Phil

That choke-point thing is a real PIA. The good news is that it'd be "off line", so trains could be lined up in the helix previous to being "on scene". (ie, we know BAEN-15 follows AMTK 20, so stage the amtrak train and the freight in the helix already, then just move em up to "appear". this means I'd need a second track though.)

I do think the wider radii are still important in hidden places though, because of the operational characteristics of the stuff I want to run. I'm happy to change my mind though given some experiential data of bigger cars on smaller curves.

[wm3798]

Ed sed:  "I really like the feeling of it it being "part of a system", doing things like traffic modeling, etc... and a branchline doesn't do that."

...other than the industrial area would keep the "system" fed.  In addition to the traffic modeling, you have to factor in entertainment/play value.  On the one hand, you want to represent a busy main line with lots of through traffic, and a semi busy terminal to deal with some of that.  That's fine.  Big staging, trains show up, glide around, and disappear.

My layout can do that, too, with the added interest of the division point operations, with set outs, power swaps, and the like.

But it's the industrial switching stuff that's the meat and potatoes.  What's the point of setting out a cut of cars in the yard, if they're aren't going anywhere?  Likewise, isn't it more fun to drag a load from a loading dock run it down to the outbound interchange track, and really feel like it's going somewhere?  I know you plan to include some switching, and there are plenty of opportunities to do that in the concept.  But you also pine for the brick canyons of south Philly... and the modular switching district is your opportunity to scratch that itch, and even use it as a traveling display...

Consider also that your space really is confined.  Even with a second deck, through trains will make the circuit pretty quickly.  Other than getting hung up in the helix for a few minutes, or having to pause at CP Nowhere to wait for a meet, you may be overestimating the value of that thru traffic.  I know I did.

Just a thought (or

Lee

[Mark5]

Thru traffic is an essential element to what I want in my model railroad. Of course I model a double tracked main with heavy traffic. But to me, skipping it would be like leaving out other essential things, like mountains. ;D

Of course we all deal with constraints eh?

Seems the track plan posted though doesn't have much in terms of stuff for the local to do (while that thru freight rolls by!)

I don't have any real suggestions though (I'm watching with interest though).

Mark

[sizemore]

Ed sed:  "I really like the feeling of it it being "part of a system", doing things like traffic modeling, etc... and a branchline doesn't do that."

...other than the industrial area would keep the "system" fed.  In addition to the traffic modeling, you have to factor in entertainment/play value.  On the one hand, you want to represent a busy main line with lots of through traffic, and a semi busy terminal to deal with some of that.  That's fine.  Big staging, trains show up, glide around, and disappear.

My layout can do that, too, with the added interest of the division point operations, with set outs, power swaps, and the like.

But it's the industrial switching stuff that's the meat and potatoes.  What's the point of setting out a cut of cars in the yard, if they're aren't going anywhere?  Likewise, isn't it more fun to drag a load from a loading dock run it down to the outbound interchange track, and really feel like it's going somewhere?  I know you plan to include some switching, and there are plenty of opportunities to do that in the concept.  But you also pine for the brick canyons of south Philly... and the modular switching district is your opportunity to scratch that itch, and even use it as a traveling display...

Consider also that your space really is confined.  Even with a second deck, through trains will make the circuit pretty quickly.  Other than getting hung up in the helix for a few minutes, or having to pause at CP Nowhere to wait for a meet, you may be overestimating the value of that thru traffic.  I know I did.

Just a thought (or

Lee

I lean on Lee's suggestion heavily I think there should be a little more selective compression within the space. Instead of modeling the places, I'd go more along the lines of selecting the industries along the NCR, then pick a selection to model and allow that to dictate the modeled location. I kinda feel like your plan is trying to accomplish too much in too little of a space, while Lee's plan is a little more spaced out. I'd actually flip Lee's plan, so Penn station is along the bottom wall, and move the switching district jutting out from the righthand wall. With it in the location Lee has on his diagram it feels slightly claustrophobic or "hallway" versus walking into a trainroom or layout. I'd also have the a doubletrack go around the left wall and through the stairs to a hidden helix. One helix allowing two directions. This would also allow for an extended run if possible, Philly or York would end up underneath Penn Station.

Thats just my .02 (canadien)
The S.

[wm3798]

The difficulty with putting Penn Station on the bottom wall, is the other side is good old Baltimore County clay.  Hard to build staging there...  The tunnels at each end of Penn Station give a great natural entry/exit for off layout trains.  The only real foobie is the wye at B&P to allow southbound NCR trains into B&P Tunnel, and the industrial area is coming off of Guilford Ave, instead of Bayview, which would be more kosher geographically.

Of course, after walking into the Surround Sound equivalent of Model Railroading that is Howard Zane's, I'm inclined to agree with Steve and Sizemore that there needs to be a powerful visual component to just walking into the room.  Either way, the giant helix cassons that Ed proposes don't work.

Lee

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Ah, I think I forgot to mention that helix situation there.

That helix would actually be pretty decently hidden. The area at the bottom of the stairs would be the Cockeysville Industrial Track switching area. The helix hides where the peninsula hits the wall.

The scene that people would see when they enter would be McCormicks (or whatever I put in there) and the Cockeysville station area on the left.

[wm3798]

Include the York Road underpass, and I'll gradually begin to warm to the idea.

Lee

[conrail98]

Ed, you're thinking of the helix down/up for staging, I'm thinking of it as the climb between decks 1 and 2 with staging off in the other room, unless you are going to stage trains for the start of an ops session out on the line.

Also, I've been thinking about your ops and how it relates to the train list document you shared with me. You have a lot of unit trains, both empty and full, as well as 1/2 TV and 5/6 passenger trains in each direction. What I don't quite understand is how you see your yard being handled. With Bayview so close, I'm wondering how much traffic really would drop there and wouldn't just continue on to Bayview and then a local(s) would operate from there back up the NCR. Or are you thinking more along the lines of the operating scheme like how Abrams was operated at times?

Phil

[Iain]

Since my cup o' tea is sleepy southern branchline railroading, I can't offer much on the traffic side, but what I am thinking is that all that through traffic wouldn't be so fun when you are operating by yourself.  For that you would probably want to go with more switching and locals.

[DKS]

Well, with about a dozen replies arriving since I opened up CorelDraw until I exported an image, I may be a little late to the party. But I'd like to suggest that folks take a step back and think about the functional space to work in, before getting into the nitty-gritty of what stations and industries go where.

Clearly there are two features that cannot go away, given a two-level layout: a helix, and a return loop. These are the 800-pound gorillas that need to be worked into the space. My suggestion is to place the helix where few people seem to want to put it: right smack dab in the middle of the room. The natural inclination of putting it under the stairs I think creates more work than is necessary; it means running tracks between the steps, and it's a difficult space to work in or access.

In the middle of the room, it has excellent access and would be much easier to build. Also, the top of the helix need not be a no-man's land; it could be completely filled with, say, an urban industrial switching area. I then placed the return loop in the only other viable location, while leaving the floor space at the bottom of the steps clear for people to pass one another (although a narrow shelf extension could go there to hold small a industry or two, if desired). Note, too, the loops are nearly 48 inches in diameter, which should provide a healthy radius for any rolling stock types.

If placing the staging yard(s) in the other room is an option, then there should be adequate space for lots of points of interest along the lines between the two loops. If connections to portable modules are desired, I'd recommend they be placed in the other room so as to not disturb the integrity of the main layout when the modules are at shows.

[conrail98]

I don't know if you need 2 helices/turnbacks unless Ed has a given of continuous running. Ed, do you have a list of givens/druthers, must haves/nice to haves, etc.?

Phil

[seusscaboose]

Of course, after walking into the Surround Sound equivalent of Model Railroading that is Howard Zane's, I'm inclined to agree with Steve and Sizemore that there needs to be a powerful visual component to just walking into the room.  

Lee

i have been lurking on this post and find it compelling and interesting to watch the ideas flow. i agree with Lee's "powerful visual component" comment,  it has merit.  I think now is a GREAT time to consider the aesthetic designs upon entrance to the room (not just the sight lines of different sections of the layout).  

That being said, you CAN do a lot with a little space if you limit the entrance to the room (or at least the visual lines) to bring focus to a particular area.

at my place, you walk down the stairs into a big room... with a shelf layout.  not very appealing when it comes to a wow factor (even as the scenery approaches something "finished").  In this particular case (visual component upon entrance) i think size does not matter, it is more about controlling the sight lines.

Walking down stairs into an open basement doesn't force the eye to gravitate.  Walking down a set of stairs with a door at the bottom, building anticipation and then entering into a room that has been designed well or throws you right into a duck under and saturates you with trains is a good example of "wow factors".

of course, you don't need a basement to pull this off, even a small side room could be controlled.

sorry to detour the thread (now back to your regularly scheduled ranting).  keep up the good ideas.  i would be interested in your "wow" factor ideas.

EP

[C855B]

In both Lee's and David's interpretations I see a troublesome room access pinch point between the bottom helix and the steps. I would suggest moving the helix barrel about a foot to the right and add an industry opportunity on a narrow shelf over to the left wall.

[asciibaron]

what is the door at the lower right?  what is the door at the upper left?  what is that utility space?