Back to the PRR Buffalo Line

[Dave V]

Since I haven't had much time for modeling lately, I've been using all of the staff meetings I've been sitting through to figure out where I want to go long-term in my modeling efforts.  Maybe I've had too many of Steve's waffles, but it seems like I've been here before.

I even briefly considered selling ALL of it and doing modern-day NS on the Reading Harrisburg line.

But back to PRR.  My druthers have been:

1.  1-2 track heavy mainline in 1956
2.  Survived relatively intact through Conrail into 1980
3.  Used a variety of equipment from Sharks and Geeps to M1s and H10s
4.  Had passenger service (preferably both eras, but if just 1956, that's OK)
5.  Some sort of engine terminal and yard but not overwhelming
6.  Some heavy industry
7.  Rural running
8.  Bridges
9.  Coal traffic
10.  Some sort of reasonable operating scheme
11.  Limited or no catenary (I have a GG1, but am not looking for a fleet of electric locos)

The only line I can come up with that matches all of these is the Buffalo line.  I know, I know...  It's been DONE before.  What can Dave do that the others haven't already done (Ken McCrory, Steve Mallory, etc.)??  In reality, probably nothing.  But proto-lancing isn't scratching my itch anymore.  So I'm willing to accept that it's been done before, and I think it's probably such a popular route because it meets the above criteria so well.

The line from Harrisburg to Northumberland meets:

1.  1-2 track mainline in both eras with heavy traffic.  I would consider open run-through staging as representing both Harrisburg and Norry.
2.  Even today, the Buffalo line is a great line to model under NS, and would be fine for CR 1980.
3.  I have shots of almost every class of loco on the Pennsy running on this line, so I can use all of my kitbashed steam.
4.  One passenger train each way each day in 1956 is the perfect traffic level (versus the 50 some-odd passenger trains on the Middle Division).  No Amtrak, but I can live with that (or bend history) for 1980.
5.  I would add a diesel shop to the open staging yard to represent Harrisburg and Norry engine terminals.  If I had a huge amount of room, I could do a turntable and roundhouse, but all would be approximations.  Norry was pretty big and busy, after all.
6.  Sunbury has some decent industry.  In fact, there's a PP&L power plant just downriver that can receive loaded coal hoppers.
7.  Areas like Clark's Ferry and Millersburg offer scenic running through rural hills.
8.  Walthers double-track trusses would be great for the Susquehanna crossings between Sunbury and Norry.
9.  Lots of coal and iron-ore traffic.  Would love to finagle a loads in/empties out pairing between a coal mine (representing the Shamokin line) and the PP&L plant.
10.  A reasonable sampling of the train traffic on this line could be captured for an operating session.
11.  The Harrisburg end of run-through staging could have a few token catenary poles for the G to sit under, but otherwise we're in good shape here.

I also love the Sunbury depot scene.  I'm wondering if I could use modulars to kitbash a version of it.

Not sure how to proceed.  If I started work on the layout here in Nebraska I'd need to make the layout portable somehow.  I thought about trying to make it from 3 hollow-core doors, as they lend themselves well for moving.  I don't know yet.

Just a few rambling thoughts...

[wm3798]

Let us know when you have a basement...


The team is ready!  Note that David K is even wearing pearls...!

Lee

[asciibaron]

there is plenty of operations on the Buffalo line.  i'm all for it.  now you get to sort it out

[Dave V]

Ah, yes, Lee...  But there's the rub.  I have a basement NOW.  What if I get stationed back in Florida next? 

Hmm...   I guess then I'll need to use the garage and insulate it so it's not so blinkin' hot.  As long as the layout is truly portable, then I would need to bring it in for the hurricanes so I can put the cars in the garage...

Now I have to get buy-in from the missus...

Hey, how much money do you think I could get for my layout right now?  Not the trains, but the layout and structures?

[asciibaron]

Hey, how much money do you think I could get for my layout right now?  Not the trains, but the layout and structures?

$1.00

[randgust]

Do you already have "Western New York and Pennsylvania" by Paul Pietrak?

http://www.comoshops.com/si/OP-8566.html

That is simply an excellent book on the line from Buffalo south, including schedules, equipment, yard layouts, etc.  Covers a lot of the 1956 era.

I'd highly nominate Olean, NY as a great model idea.  Two PRR lines merged there; the Oil City to Olean line, and the Harrisburg-Buffalo line.  That didn't change until the Kinzua Dam was built in 1965.  But until then the MAJORITY of the coal traffic to Buffalo from points south came on-line at Olean - up the Allegheny River. 

AND, best of all, you get to cross the Erie Railroad main line on a four-track diamond.  So you can have some variety and maybe get Chris333 to help out!

The stations and yards were relatively small.  Also remember that this was the 'north end' of the Keating Summit operation so that the helpers were based here.

Check it out on Terraserver.  The line southwest to Warren shows as an abandoned railroad grade.  The PRR roundhouse remants are south west of the diamond.  The PRR passenger station was downtown, not that big.  Another 'cool thing' is that the PRR and Erie were on opposite sides of the valley from Olean to Hinsdale, running parallel.

http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=12&Z=17&X=889&Y=5828&W=1&qs=%7cOlean%7cNY%7c

Back in 1898 you had even more of a mess of railroads converging there.  You need Pietrak's book to sort it all out:
http://www.historical.maptech.com/getImage.asp?fname=olen98sw.jpg&state=NY

I'm only 45 minutes away from there.  The 'new' WNYP now controls it all, Olean yard on the Erie is the headquarters.  That's west of the diamonds.

And if anybody has ever done this one, in any era, I've never heard of it.

I don't know about 1956, but I had one memorable day of train chasing out there in 1975, jumping back and forth across the valley between PC and EL trying to determine which line I was hearing air horns on!

[Dave V]

Randgust,

Does that book cover the Harrisburg-Williamsport segment, or just the NY State part?

[Wlal13again]

Hey, how much money do you think I could get for my layout right now?  Not the trains, but the layout and structures?

$1.00

Hell I go as high as $25.00....

[wm3798]

I bet Dave's celebrity status would net him upwards of $50...

If it had Code 55 rail, I'd go all the way to $60.

Lee

[randgust]

Randgust,

Does that book cover the Harrisburg-Williamsport segment, or just the NY State part?

Basically goes down as far south as Emporium, which was the furthest extent south of the 'original' WNYP prior to full absorbtion into the PRR about 1920.

While its got a lot of older history, it's primarily a PRR book steam and transition diesel, and the only book that covers this corner of the state.  It doesn't cover the P&E (Warren-Emporium) though at all.

[Erik W]

Dave,

I wouldn't sweat modeling something that has been done before.  It may not be the first time the Buffalo Line has been modeled before but it's new to you.  When I got back into model railroading 5+ years ago after a couple of decades of zero interest, I decided to model the Moffat line from Denver to the east portal of the Moffat Tunnel.  It seemed like a natural thing since it's local to me and scenically speaking, pretty spectacular.  Only after I had decided to model this did I learn that Mike Danneman (who I had never heard of at that time) was modeling the same thing, on a bigger scale, in N scale!  No worries though.  I'm still having fun and am happy with my choice.

If the fact that it's been done before is your biggest detraction, I wouldn't worry about it.

Erik

[JDouglasFisher]

Hey Dave,

I kinda like the idea of the Harriburg line, only I would suggest doing it in Reading Years. (just think, Lee will be over your house all the time with his WM equipment. hahahaha)

That being said, the several times I pondered modeling the PRR (and yes, I have PDY 1-6,) I thought the lines to Buffalo were the most reasonably modelable without having to have a barn.

Its a stretch, but if you wanted to include some other variety, you could include the B&O (Buffalo, Rochester and Pittsburgh) as an interchange somewhere as well since they went through there. (Covered Wagons, SD-9's, and Pups were the rule)

I lived in Kane, PA for a stint and loved it out there (except there is no work... ) Reason why I wouldn't mind modeling the BR&P during the 50's in that area.

Dave, might I suggest listening to Model Rail Cast episode 54? Excellent show on developing a decision Matrix? I'm still trying to figure out how to use it (excel files don't like playing nice with MS Works Spreadsheet)

I will say however that using doors as "modules" makes moving alot easier. Would be interested to see how a layout built around that concept works out.

Of course, you could always pull a "Crazy Ivan" and decide to model something completely different than the norm, oh I dunno, maybe the Modesto and Empire Traction company in HO scale along 4 doors, that measure 18" x 80" each?

I've already relegated myself to the fact that I simply will not be happy with one prototype, so even if I have a basement one day, probably be a few different smaller railroads instead of one huge empire.

Afterall, Variety is the spice of life, no?

J.

[Bob Bufkin]

Ever thing of doing the Northern Central line from Harrisburg to Baltimore.  I know it wasn't all double track but that should not be any problem.  Freights, lots of locals to York.  Exchange with the WM and Reading, PRR passenger trains and early Amtrak before the line went out of service.  Could also have you electric trackage at the Harrisburg/Baltimore end.
Bob

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Dave, two things:
1. I think the  Buffalo Line is a great idea. I know lots of people who can help with questions. Ask around on the CRHS forum and you'll soon know them too (make sure to ask Kris and Bruce in May too...)

2. You NEED to come out in October for the CRHS convention. I can't tell you why, but just trust me...

[Dave V]

PRR/CR works best because I have so many locos and cabins for that...  Besides, I love the Reading but not as much.

No danger of HO or traction for me!!!

Ed, you'll have to clear that with my wife; she's already sending me to the CRHS Rail-B-Q in May!

I've thought a LOT about the Harrisburg to Baltimore line.  Two things make it less attractive:

1.  Didn't survive intact to Conrail (1972 and Hurricane Agnes took care of the line from the PA state line to Cockysville).

2.  Loco restrictions...  My M1 would not have been seen on the Northern Central south of H'burg.

But otherwise, it's a great line!