Rivarossi Heavyweights updating

[thomasjmdavis]

The old Rivarossi pullman sleeper is a plan 2410 (slightly shorter, and non-pediment roof) while the MTL is a plan 3410.  So, in cases where one is picky about such things, the old RR model may be a better choice depending on the prototype being modeled.  But in general, I agree with chessie system fan.  Especially at current eBay prices- where the old Rivarossi may sell for close to the same price as a new MTL car from a discount online retailer- or for that matter, your local hobby shop- where you aren't paying shipping.  Add $10 for couplers and new wheels, plus stairs and details. And in my experience, the MTL twin window coach is easier to find than the Rivarossi car.

 IMHO Rivarossi under-produced coaches and over-produced diners and observation cars. But maybe that is just me.  We all ended up with 5 and six car sets- Baggage, Combine, Coach, Diner, Sleeper, Cafe-lounge-Obs.  I doubt there was ever a train that looked like that in real life - that is a whole lot of food service and lounge space for 1 Pullman sleeper and a coach.

Since there is  some discussion on bolster centers up above, it is worth noting that the 3 axle trucks made for the MTL single window coach have a bolster hole much closer to center than the trucks for earlier cars.

[chessie system fan]

It's probably just as well they didn't make more coaches. They took the sleeper molds and made new sides. The problem is coaches are shorter, so to add the extra length they stretched the doors.   That might have passed in 1975, but in 2024 the result is just embarrassing. If you compare the Rivarossi coach to the Micro Trains coach, which is modeled on the same B&O prototype, you'll see what I mean. 

[nkalanaga]

As Tom says, one must trim some plastic from the original trucks to use 36 inch wheels.  It isn't hard, but work carefully, because some of the old trucks are getting brittle.

[thomasjmdavis]

It's probably just as well they didn't make more coaches. They took the sleeper molds and made new sides. The problem is coaches are shorter, so to add the extra length they stretched the doors.   That might have passed in 1975, but in 2024 the result is just embarrassing. If you compare the Rivarossi coach to the Micro Trains coach, which is modeled on the same B&O prototype, you'll see what I mean.

I'm not arguing that the Rivarossi coaches were correct- but as you say, in 1975, they were pretty good, compared to everything else on the market. If you are buying cars today, definitely go for the MTL. But...I haven't thrown out my Rivarossi cars (being old enough to have bought mine in the 1970s, plus a couple dozen picked up for $50 total on eBay in the  early days when there were actual bargains. IIRC, in scale, the sleeper was 1' short of the 81' plan 2410 prototype, the SF baggage and combine (the prototypes for which were both rebuilt from long lounge cars) were a few feet short, the coach is 2' long (accepting the conventional wisdom that it is based on the same B&O coach as the MTL model), and the diner is 6" too long.  Essentially, RR (or maybe Atlas) made the decision to build the cars based on a 6" long (80 scale feet) mold.  But compared to everything else out there, the Rivarossi cars were the varnish of choice for many of us.

And....not ALL coaches were 78' long.  Wabash, for instance, had coaches that were 82', built, I assume, on the Pullman 34xx sleeper frame.  And, many Pullman sleepers and parlor cars were rebuilt as coaches, there were also some parlor cars with 10 paired windows (again, often converted to coaches)- not exact matches for the RR coaches, of course, but if the model is going to be a stand in anyway, and (as in my case), you paid less than $5 for it, and it still operates well...

I still maintain a pair of RR sleepers that I cut and pasted into 8-1-2's after my first order of MTL 12-1s arrived, and a SF diner with the roof replaced with one equipped with AC hatches, and a couple coaches painted for Wabash, even though they lack the center window (although that is true for any out of the box coach). And several of the SF baggage cars (although the one modeled was a unique car, there were a number of similar baggage cars rebuilt at the same time from various lounge and diner cars), and some others I modified for length, even though the details are incorrect. And there are a couple of unmodified 12-1's that will someday get a coat of MoW gray, to represent the small army of old sleepers that SF bought in the 1950s and converted to MoW use. And in the days before MTL cars became available, I used RR as cores for M&R heavyweight sides, although in the current day, I recommend the core kits from ATSFNScale if you are doing a coach or smoker, and MTL as cores for other cars - the modular design makes things much easier than trying to chop up a RR, plus all the roof variations and such.

[randgust]

Texas State RR has one of the fully preserved/restored cafe-lounges in operation - the 1511.  It's painted red but it's preserved the second-generation interiors inside.   It has the original kitchen preserved.  1512 is at San Luis Obispo museum.  1509 is also preserved in ATSF paint at Pacific Southwest museum.

I'm tellin' ya, the kitchen is tiny.  The dining area is small, like six tables.   The lounge/observation end reminds me of a private car layout, a little bigger.  What would typically be pullman bedroom and drawing room space in an observation is a compressed diner layout.  It's more than the 'buffet' layouts on a lot of ATSF cars (cold food and sandwiches) and less than a full diner.

ATSF reportedly used these cars in some of the regional passenger trains in the west like in Oklahoma, etc.   Unlike the combines that were on the Fast Mail, I'm not entirely sure just how so many survived, I think there are 3, but the only one you can regularly ride in is the 1511.

So given that you've got like a little kitchen, a little diner area, and a little observation area, it's literally two cars in one and ideal for a short regional passenger train.  It really was a rather unique Pullman planset to be memorialized in HO and N scale.  These were not a 'name train' car that you'd see on the California Limited, Chief, etc.   This was the 'nice' car on a non-overnight, regional coach train with head end traffic. 

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3546038#google_vignette

I'm still not sure if any other railroad other than Santa Fe did this planset of a cafe-observation.   And you are correct in assuming that this is the Department of Redundancy Department to have a diner with it.

The 'combine' in the Rivarossi set is equally oddball, as they were built as Pullman buffet-library-baggage cars, partially plated up with an extended baggage section, no RPO section, and about 8 coach seats in the combine section.   Texas State has two of those in operation (61 and 60), that they have made into concession cars with an ADA restroom in the baggage area, preserved the historic coach seat section, etc.  The reason those survived is they were the rider coaches on the Fast Mail, so that you had 'some' passenger accommodations however spartan, in the train.   It's of note that they NEVER had air conditioning.   This was Santa Fe 'hard class' for sure on a scheduled, named long-distance train.  And because the "Fast Mail" survived as long as it did, the combines had a disproportionate survival rate to the modern era.

Many of the 'later' mixed trains on ATSF had true combines, and they were typically painted mineral brown / red.  These stayed Pullman green.

So they aren't really a conventional branch line combine, either, but if you are modelling the Fast Mail, they are a godsend.    And after they were converted out of first-class Buffet-Library, I'm not instantly sure on the assignments but I have the full history of the cars in my archives.

And for non-Santa Fe fanatics, there's an easy spotting feature on many Santa Fe heavyweights, look for the long horizontal frame reinforcement on the lower sill edge.  Signature.  https://www.laparks.org/traveltown/collection/passenger/AtchisonTopekaSantaFeSnackCar3355

[Albert in N]

Photo of my Con-Cor #0003-570001 N scale heavyweight passenger Santa Fe 6 car set taken for reference.  Took advantage of sun light and my shoe shows.   Also second photo shows box end with set.  Note that the buffet smoking car has a MTL truck with coupler to couple to knuckle coupler power.  The other cars have original rapido coupler trucks.

[Loren Perry]

The Rivarossi heavyweight passenger cars are precisely what got me into N-scale model railroading.

In the mid-1970's, I was visiting my favorite hobby shop (Colonial Photo and Hobby in Orlando, FL) and while chatting with a friend who worked behind the counter, I happened to spot a six-car set of these little gems in the display case. My friend pulled it out for me and I marveled at the beautifully rendered decoration on the Pullman sleeper (Centacre, I believe, was the car's name.) The molded plastic detailing was the best I had ever seen in this small scale. I had never before seen such precise excellence. I bought the set immediately even though I had no track or layout to run it on. That came later. Then another hobby shop owner introduced me to Kadee (later Micro-Trains) box cars (and other types) and demonstrated their incredibly free rolling wheels and trucks on a slightly elevated section of Atlas flex track. The cars seemed to coast forever. I started acquiring track, cars, locomotives and everything else needed for my first home layout.

I still operate those very same Rivarossi cars (plus others like them and a number of Micro-Trains heavyweights) on my home layout. All have been upgraded with Gold Medal Models steps and stirrups, GMM etched brass observation car rails and lighted drumheads, body-mounted MT couplers and trucks, enhanced interior detailing plus window shades, figures, and in a few cases, custom paint and markings. They were regular runners at my old club, the Belmont Shore Lines at San Pedro, CA., and they'll keep me entertained and happy until the day I move on to meet once again with Dean and Kirk.

[wm3798]

Agreed that Ebay sources have gotten ridiculous in pricing old rolling stock.  However, if you do your search as "used lot"  or "parts" you can usually find sellers who aren't pretending to be retailers, and they just want to move stuff along.  If you're modifying and painting, it's worth a look at some of these cast offs.  There's certainly no shortage of them.

Also, if you have the patience to wait for a good show, older models show up all the time on sale tables, again with "I don't want to pack this stuff and take it home with me" pricing.

Happy Hunting!


Lee

[Loren Perry]

A little more info on those lovely old Rivarossi cars:

When I was detailing all my RR heavyweights, I found some Oriental Limited black rubber diaphragms at my local hobby shop and bought a ton of them to add to my fleet. When I started converting the heavyweight cars to body mounted couplers, a few days of experimenting led me to settle on the Micro-Trains 1015 couplers because, 1. they were small and easy to fit into the space at the cars' ends, and 2. the couplers had more side-to-side swing then any other MT coupler without modifications.

By leaving a uniform 1/32" gap between the faces of adjacent diaphragms (measured while the train was stationary on tangent track with all coupler slack taken out), this arrangement permitted the cars to reliably negotiate a Peco Code 55 double crossover which results in a train passing through a normally dreaded S-curve. Only the MT 1015's had enough swing to make this possible. My trains have performed flawlessly in this manner for well over a decade and never derail. I can't push them backwards through the S-curve without derailing, but I can do that on my 22" radius superelevated curves elsewhere on the layout.