BLI RSD-15 Wire Colors?

[C855B]

I wouldn't assume that BLI is intentionally being difficult, it's just that they have never really considered the use case.

Oh, they'd have to know about it by now, as many user complaints (and service requests) with their decoders as I would expect them to have experienced since Day 1. Malicious/protective, probably not, but shoulder-shrug, yeah, pretty likely.

[Kentuckian]

Hanlon’s razor? “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”

[Ed Kapuscinski]

How much of it could be allowing the factory to do what is easier for them?  Path of least resistance to get products timely.  You always hear stories of companies fighting with China on little things.

There's even a phrase for it: "Cha Bu Duo"

[C855B]

Making reasonable headway on wire tracing. Most wires are identified; the last remaining work is determining polarity on the headlight boards. There are markings that imply (+) is not the common like it is on "normal" decoders, which would be a blue wire.

The mystery gray wire on a separate connector noted in the other RSD-15 thread is solved: number board illumination. Function cheat sheet in the box said "F10", but it's actually F7.

I'm trying to determine which F-function controls the cab lighting; like the number boards it's not what the printed function list says. Odds are that I'm not going to connect the cab lighting (why is it a feature?*) since I'd like to reserve the additional lighting lead for the yellow beacon that was on a small handful of ATSF -15s in the late '60s.

* - This gets into the whole toy vs. model "thing" with BLI. This is a nice model. But when it comes to pointless gewgaws, just because "you can" doesn't mean "you should". If they wanted to do something useful in the way of a whiz-bang function, they could have illuminated the marker lights.   

[CBQ Fan]

There's even a phrase for it: "Cha Bu Duo"

That doesn’t surprise me.

[peteski]

. . .
 Odds are that I'm not going to connect the cab lighting (why is it a feature?*) since I'd like to reserve the additional lighting lead for the yellow beacon that was on a small handful of ATSF -15s in the late '60s.

* - This gets into the whole toy vs. model "thing" with BLI. This is a nice model. But when it comes to pointless gewgaws, just because "you can" doesn't mean "you should". If they wanted to do something useful in the way of a whiz-bang function, they could have illuminated the marker lights.   

Why? Because extra functions outputs are available, along with very small LEDs.  Remember: more is better. 
It is not just BLI.  I have multiple European prototype models which have cab illumination.  Then there are sound effects like "engineer's window opening" or "cab door opening"?  Really?  Next: toilet flushing sound. Again it is the feature creep, since the sound decoders have enough Flash memory to hold all those "useful" sound effects. 

I also notice that some good modelers here like illuminated cabs.  They leave the upper LED in the cab exposed, so it illuminates the cab with what I call' a "nuclear glow".  Like the old Bachmann or Life-Like locos used to look like with a light bulb simply plopped in the cab.  When I commented on the glowing cab I was told that this individual likes that look.

[C855B]

[CBQ Fan]

Mine looks great and runs smoothly. It’s top end is a bit slow for me, but I wonder if that has anything to do with running it on DC and not DCC.

[nkalanaga]

A function for the number boards?  Didn't most railroads leave them on all the time, or at least whenever the headlight was on?

CBQ Fan:  Probably.  Sound decoders take a lot of voltage for "overhead", before the loco starts moving.  I have an Athearn Challenger that won't even RUN on my layout, because my throttle's top voltage isn't high enough!

(Yes, I need a higher input voltage for it, but my DC diesels and electrics run fine, so why bother to change?  I model 1974, so wouldn't have a Challenger anyway)

[CBQ Fan]

A function for the number boards?  Didn't most railroads leave them on all the time, or at least whenever the headlight was on?

CBQ Fan:  Probably.  Sound decoders take a lot of voltage for "overhead", before the loco starts moving.  I have an Athearn Challenger that won't even RUN on my layout, because my throttle's top voltage isn't high enough!

(Yes, I need a higher input voltage for it, but my DC diesels and electrics run fine, so why bother to change?  I model 1974, so wouldn't have a Challenger anyway)

What is interesting is how wide the range of speeds are for my BLI locos. I have quite a few E units, most are the same but I have one really slow and another at maximum velocity. My switcher unit is a bit slower but that is fine. It is hard to run them in consists in DC.

[C855B]

OK, I've solved most of the wiring. The first one has its LokPilot 5 installed and runs silky smooth. It required a bridge board since the wires to the trucks were too short to meet in the middle and I didn't want to take the trucks apart for new wires or splice #30 or #32 wires.

I spent two evenings trying to make sense out of the lighting circuits. There are light assemblies front and back that contain the headlights and number board illumination, plus the cab lighting in the front. Short version of the problem - conversion to a standard DCC decoder is not a straightforward process because the front headlights and number boards switch the positive feed against a negative common. Here's what I found for the light board pinouts; the front board has helpful markings once you figure out what the system is:

Front Lights
"GND" - Number Boards (-), Headlight (-)
"3.3" - Cab Light (+)
"FL" - Headlight (+)
"CAB-" - Cab Light (-)
"NUM+" - Number Boards (+)

Rear Lights
"RL" - Headlight (-)
(none) - Headlight (+)
(none) - Number Boards (-)
(none) - N/C
"NUM+" - Number Boards (+)

Rear lights are easy-peasy. Front lights are the issue. The cab lighting which I could do without is a separate circuit. Wanting illuminated number boards and the headlight to operate on separate F-keys is another ball of wax without, say, adding an additional conversion board.

Oh... I nearly toasted the LEDs. LokPilots and LokSound decoders put full 12.5V out on the headlight common (blue wire) and don't have current limiting resistors for LEDs on the F-key control lines. Oops. Almost.

I'm open to suggestions for separate control of the front light cluster. Failing that, I'll either leave the number boards dark or parallel them with the front headlight.

[peteski]

So BLI function outputs switch positive side and the negative (ground) is the common?  That is totally not DCC compliant.  I guess they can do that since the entire model (including decoders) is their proprietary design! 

The only way I can think to get the front number boards working with ESU would be to cut the traces on the front light board and rewire it to use positive common and current limiting resistors.

And as for ESU decoders and their common positive output, some use 12V others use 5V. Some have built-in AUX current limiting resistors, others don't .  My threads with reverse engineered ESU decoders have that info.  I have not done all the V5 decoders yet, but I will eventually.

[C855B]

I downloaded the LokPilot/LokSound 5 manual, and it explicitly states 12.5VDC on the lighting common (blue) for all versions. There is some discussion in the manual about accommodating European models with incandescent lighting and possible accessories such as remote control uncoupling on the F-function lines. They spec 470Ω resistors which at 27mA is pretty hot for SMD LEDs, IMO. I have 680Ω 0603 chips on the way, but they're still going to be super-bright; after tests last night I'm tempted to do 1K instead to tone it down a little.

As to cutting the traces on the lighting clusters, easier said then done. The PCB is buried under a plastic housing that acts as a light block, I guess to prevent the headlight(s) from illuminating the number boards. For the front I could start hacking at it to see what was doable, but that sort of effort for the four I have doesn't seem to be worth it. My inclination at the moment is to make the number boards (front and rear) illuminate along with the front headlight and just call it a day.

BLI seems to march to their own drummer. I've said before that I resent the apparent attitude and the "sound premium" for a feature that I turn off or remove altogether. But when they produce models I want that nobody else will touch - like the RSD-15 - there is little choice but to swallow my pride, pony-up the bucks, and practice a little bit of modeling effort to get closer to my preferences. Heck, if there is any manufacturer of the bunch that will potentially produce the U50, U50C, C855 or DD35s in my lifetime, it'll more than likely be BLI. Y'know, that "different drummer" thing of theirs.

[peteski]

I downloaded the LokPilot/LokSound 5 manual, and it explicitly states 12.5VDC on the lighting common (blue) for all versions. There is some discussion in the manual about accommodating European models with incandescent lighting and possible accessories such as remote control uncoupling on the F-function lines. They spec 470Ω resistors which at 27mA is pretty hot for SMD LEDs, IMO. I have 680Ω 0603 chips on the way, but they're still going to be super-bright; after tests last night I'm tempted to do 1K instead to tone it down a little.

Mike, not *ALL* ESU decoders use full rectified (12V) voltage for the "blue" +U voltage.  the V5 nanos do, but 58721 do not.   See my write-up https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=54278.msg744107#msg744107  . It has 5.3V "blue" and 680 ohm on-board resistors for LEDs (the AUX output pads have no resistor in series).

Going back to V4, 73199 Loksound has 5.3V "blue" with 680 ohm resistors for on-board LEDs (no resistor on the AUX output pads), but the depopulated LokPilot version of that same board 54650 has 12V "blue" with 4.7k resistors (AUX output pads again have no resistor in series).  Then 73100 has 5.4V "blue" and uses 10k resistors (on the positive side of the LEDs).

Then the 73100 decoder uas a 12V "blue" +UB voltage with 10k resistors for on-board LEDs (AUX output pads have no resistors).

Then some larges ESU decoders have a configurable "blue" voltage which can be 1.5, 5, or12 V (the 1.5V is for when using small incandescent bulbs instead of LEDs).

So a blanket statement that all ESU decoders have 12V "blue" output is not accurate.

[C855B]

Wow. OK, I'll take some correction on that. All 59000-series LokPilot 5 decoders have 12.5VDC on the positive common. Unless the manual is lying. My error was including 58000-series LokSound 5 decoders in that blanket statement, where some versions - but not all - are configured for direct LED connection.

I didn't say or imply anything other than V5.