Amtrak #7 Empire Builder derails in Montana

[Hiroe]

https://twitter.com/melissakxly4/status/1441903212399771648?s=21&fbclid=IwAR1fDiV6E8xGH709USY34zDAVlqBKmpiiSvdv5zFoMgbl9KY5dYpLb6FiQI

"Getting reports of an Amtrak derailment near Havre, Montana. This is the Empire Builder that comes through Spokane on the way to Seattle. These pictures are from a passenger; working to get more info."

[learmoia]

Woops...

[kscessandriver]

Woops...

Woops probably isn't the best way to describe it now that it appears to have fatalities involved. It's bad from the pictures I've seen online in various spots.

[C855B]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/25/us/amtrak-train-derailed-montana/index.html

[nkalanaga]

From the pictures it was the rear of the train that derailed, and the last car that overturned.  It appears to have happened at the east switch for Buelow siding, just west of Joplin, MT.   Northwest TV stations were reporting, around 10pm EDT (8pm local time) 3 fatalities.  From KTVQ-TV in Billings, MT:
https://www.ktvq.com/news/montana-news/amtrak-train-derails-along-montanas-hi-line
From KHQ-TV, Spokane, WA, showing the East Buelow station signs:
https://www.khq.com/regional/some-amtrak-trains-canceled-due-to-train-derailment-near-joplin/article_6c4f3038-6f9f-5a85-b494-b16705189e7b.html

Oddly, KULR-TV, in Billings, KHQ's sister station, hadn't posted anything at 10:30pm EDT, while KHQ had good coverage.  It's often the case that KHQ-Spokane has the Montana news, and KULR-Billings has the eastern Washington!


This is pure speculation on my part:  As it was a westbound train, and the rear derailed, at or near a facing-point switch, I suspect the switch is part of the problem.  It's almost flat, open country, so falling rocks wouldn't be a problem; the photos show clear weather, so that shouldn't be an issue; and there don't appear to be any grade crossings there, looking on Google Maps.  If the train had hit something, the front should have derailed, not the rear.

[kscessandriver]

From the pictures it was the rear of the train that derailed, and the last car that overturned.  It appears to have happened at the east switch for Buelow siding, just west of Joplin, MT.   Northwest TV stations were reporting, around 10pm EDT (8pm local time) 3 fatalities.  From KTVQ-TV in Billings, MT:
https://www.ktvq.com/news/montana-news/amtrak-train-derails-along-montanas-hi-line
From KHQ-TV, Spokane, WA, showing the East Buelow station signs:
https://www.khq.com/regional/some-amtrak-trains-canceled-due-to-train-derailment-near-joplin/article_6c4f3038-6f9f-5a85-b494-b16705189e7b.html

Oddly, KULR-TV, in Billings, KHQ's sister station, hadn't posted anything at 10:30pm EDT, while KHQ had good coverage.  It's often the case that KHQ-Spokane has the Montana news, and KULR-Billings has the eastern Washington!


This is pure speculation on my part:  As it was a westbound train, and the rear derailed, at or near a facing-point switch, I suspect the switch is part of the problem.  It's almost flat, open country, so falling rocks wouldn't be a problem; the photos show clear weather, so that shouldn't be an issue; and there don't appear to be any grade crossings there, looking on Google Maps.  If the train had hit something, the front should have derailed, not the rear.

I tend to agree, it was probably on the ground before the switch, but then the switch made the mess. At least I hope that's the case, as the only other logical way to go in thinking is some sort of sabotage (like the 1995 Sunset Limited accident)

[nkalanaga]

It could well have been on the ground first, which should be easy for the investigators to find.  If that's the case, then the next question is "Why?".  On welded rail, it shouldn't be a bad joint, but beyond that there are a lot of possible causes.

Here's an update:
https://www.ktvq.com/news/montana-news/several-dead-dozens-injured-in-amtrak-train-derailment-along-hi-line

And a picture from that article:




It looks like the locomotives are just past the eastbound signals, and the first derailed car is about at them.  The overturned cars, at the rear of the train, haven't yet made it to the turnout.  And, yes, the westbound signal is on the left side of the track, for some reason.

[nkalanaga]

More coverage:

"Railway Age" magazine has comments from several experts on possible causes, and how the investigation will proceed:
https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/amtrak-empire-builder-derails-in-montana/

KOMO-TV in Seattle has a drone view, showing part of the derailed train and the turnout. 
https://komonews.com/news/nation-world/investigators-seek-cause-of-deadly-montana-train-derailment
The last three cars are on their sides, on the photo-left (westbound-right, north) side of the track, off the top of the image.  The locos are off the bottom edge.  Notice the one car on the second track.  Nothing has been moved while the investigators measure everything, so it had to get there during the accident.


" Railroad safety expert David Clarke, director of the Center for Transportation Research at the University of Tennessee, said the two locomotives and two cars at the front of the train reached the switch and continued on the main track, but the remaining eight cars derailed. He said it was unclear whether some of the last cars moved onto the second track.  "Did the switch play some role? It might have been that the front of the train hit the switch and it started fish-tailing and that flipped the back part of the train," Clarke said. "

So far there seems to be agreement that excess speed, or other crew error, isn't a likely cause.

[Albert in N]

   Question - Is Montana Rail Link involved in any way?  At one time, BN (now BNSF) concocted MRL to cut crew costs while crossing Montana.  Amtrak simply uses the rails and presumably has nothing to do with track maintenance in Montana. 

[learmoia]

  Question - Is Montana Rail Link involved in any way?  At one time, BN (now BNSF) concocted MRL to cut crew costs while crossing Montana.  Amtrak simply uses the rails and presumably has nothing to do with track maintenance in Montana. 

No, I always thought MRL was a bypass/overflow for BNSF freight but not Amtrak... The Boeing stuff runs on MRL right?

[wazzou]

No, I always thought MRL was a bypass/overflow for BNSF freight but not Amtrak... The Boeing stuff runs on MRL right?

MRL operates primarily on former NP mainline trackage in Montana.  This occurred on former GN owned track that is still operated by BNSF crews.

[nkalanaga]

Aerial view of entire train (large image):
https://3gz8cg829c.execute-api.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/prod/image-renderer/original/full/1600/center/80/0a0feeec-7853-472e-a565-3fb9aaed596c-AP21269680496755.jpg

From KXLY-TV, Spokane:  They hope to have the track open, and the Empire Builder running, on Friday.  The train was NOT speeding:
" “The locomotive recorder has given us the speeds of somewhere between 75 and 78 miles per hour. The speed limit on this section of track for passenger trains is 79 miles per hour,” said NTSB Vice Chairman Bruce Landsberg. "
https://www.kxly.com/this-is-when-the-empire-builder-is-set-to-roll-through-spokane-again/

[Maletrain]

Thanks for the complete train image. 

It makes it clear that the rear of the train was off the rails before getting to the switch.  From the looks of the rails, it seems like the last still-upright car may have had one end go one way at that switch, and the other end go the other way.  Not clear to me where that single car on the parallel track was initially located in the train.  It is across from the first gap in the train, but maybe it passed some of those other cars on the ground because it was still rolling on rails?  But, probably not, because the rails behind it look like they were forced out of gauge less than one car length back.

I have seen press statements that there are video recordings of some places on the train during the accident.  That should help a lot for getting the sequence of events organized.

[nkalanaga]

The (apparently) leading theory is that the last three cars were forced off the track by "fishtailing" forces, when the preceding cars derailed.  Basically, a "crack-the-whip" game sort of action.  They probably slid to a stop faster than the upright cars, resulting in the large gap.

One site said the NTSB should have a preliminary report in about 30 days.  Hopefully someone will post a link to it.

The fourth car in the picture is still "on" the mainline, which itself is moved out of line, so it's hard to tell if the car ion the wrong track was the third, as it is now, or the fifth car. 

The siding track could have been damaged by the wheels on the sixth car, if it tried to move back to towards the mainline, and took the rail with it. 

The tracks were reopened about 4am MDT today, and freight trains are moving.  The NTSB wanted it reopened as soon as possible, and that aerial photo shows panel track and new ties already onsite.

[nkalanaga]

According to Montana TV stations, Amtrak says that the Empire Builder will run it's full route westbound starting with the Sept 28 departure from Chicago, and eastbound with the Sept 29 departure(s) from Portland and Seattle.