Model Power pacific locked down

[Albert in N]

   Both of these are early run pacifics without traction tires.  The Rock Island has tender flat brass axle wipers while the B&O has none on the tender (probably original 2002 version).  The B&O came in a box of N train items I bought from an estate.  The Rock Island was purchased yesterday at the Plano TX train show.  The B&O never had any signs of life.  The Rock Island ran jerky then smoothed out and ran good for probably 20 minutes, then started locking down.  Finally it totally locked up.  The  headlight works, so no short.  The side rod valve gear seems free.  Frankly, I suspect that the motor drive U joint mechanism is frozen up.  There was no hot smell or smoke and when it first started locking up, a gentle push made it go again.  The man who sold it was downsizing and said new in box, which it appears to be.  I need a pacific, especially a Rock Island one.  I read Spookshow's latest review of this steamer and it appears to be a common problem with this Model Power steamer.  Any ideas or observations from others who actually fixed one of these? 

[glakedylan]

the drivers tend to de-quarter themselves, slipping on the axles. had a couple of these early versions. as well. they both suffered from this and i never got around to fixing the quartering of the drivers. even when they were running (a very short time) they could hardly move out of their own way. drivers spun while locomotive crawled or stayed still. hope you have better luck in fixing.
if it is the quartering gone bad, the only thing i have thought of as a possible fix is pulling drivers to add some glue to the tips of the axles to try and stop them from spinning out of quarter.


sincerely
Gary

[Albert in N]

Thanks Gary!  I think you may be right.  I adjusted a wheel to synch the counterweight positions.  It then ran, but popped out the right center siderods.  As time permits, I will fix that and see how it runs.  The B&O has a brass electrical pick up tab sticking out of one wheel's spokes and the counterweights don't exactly line up.  These locomotives are gorgeous for N scale, but apparently have major quality control mechanical issues. 

[mmagliaro]

Gary is spot on, and that's what's wrong with both of yours, I'd wager.  The photo of the B&O one is obviously out of quarter.
It doesn't take much to make the drivers jam.

You say they seem free.  When it jams, see if you can wiggle the side rod (the one long one attached across all three drivers) on both sides.  You should be able to, without pushing the engine.  If you can't, the quartering is off.

The problem is that the wheel centers are Delrin, and the axles are slippery steel.  I have had limited success putting Loctite or some other adhesive on the axle ends.  Even if you are able to get the drivers out, press them off their axles, apply some sort of glue and press them back on, it will be hard to find any glue that is going to hold well enough to keep the driver from just slipping on the axle again.  (Removing the drivers isn't as easy as most steam locos: after you pull the crankpins and remove the rods, and take out the screws to open the driver cover plate on the bottom, you'll find that the cover plate has a delicate wheel wiper assembly attached to whose fingers have to be position behind the drivers on both sides while you push it back in, and the power wires are in the cover and go up into the from through 2 tiny holes at the rear, where they are VERY prone to breaking off).

Curiously, I've been experimenting with a more permanent fix to these drivers since October. 

1. Pull out the axles
2. Cut a thin slit through the end of the axle with a very thin Dremel disk (.009", which you can get from eBay or dental supply houses).  The slit ALSO goes through the plastic of the driver center, just around where the axle hole is.
3. Epoxy or LocTite a .010" steel wire into the slit and through the matching slits in the wheel center, making a kind of "spline".

Since the adhesives will bond steel to steel very well, the wire will stay in place and since it is embedded in slits in the plastic, it does not have to glue-bond there.  It mechanically holds the plastic from spinning around the axle.

On the first few of these I have done, the driver seems really anchored quite well and won't spin around the axle the way the stock ones will.

Unfortunately, I have not gotten to the point of putting any of these into an engine to test if the idea holds up.

[nkalanaga]

The technique is often used on industrial machinery, so it should work here.  Just make absolutely sure the drivers are in quarter before starting!

As easily as they slip out of quarter, one idea might be to take one driver off each set, cut the slots in the axles, and the other driver, lock that driver in place, then install and quarter the remaining driver.  Now, you only have to cut the slot in the driver center, following the already-cut slot in the axle, and there would be less chance of the drivers shifting while being cut.  More complicated, yes, but it sounds safer as well.

[Albert in N]

  Thanks for the information.  Frankly, this looks like a lot of effort to correct an unwise purchase on my part.  Since I have three "fixer upper" (phrase from watching the overhead house TV in the dentist office) N Rivarossi locomotives (one mikado and two 0-8-0s), I am considering another option.  In good conscience I cannot consider pawning these two crappy Model Power pacifics off on someone at another train show.  My thoughts are that Rivarossi used Mabuchi motors in their late 2-6-6-4 challenger.  Also they used Mashima motors in their late 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 locomotives.  Possibly the similar Model Power pacific motors might replace the non-responsive can motors in two of the Rivarossi fixer uppers.  Also, the better tender with pick ups might be used on the Rivarossi mikado.  The light assembly might be adapted to my old Con-cor (Kato) 4-6-4 hudson which never had a light, but runs great.  Basically, I am thinking about making lemonade from both of my lemon Model Power pacifics.   

[MK]

How about paying some local  a small fee to fix it for you?  I'm sure there are some steam connoisseur here that would love to. 

[Albert in N]

Unfortunately, the easy fix gives about ten feet of running before the wheels and valve gear lock up again.  The proven repair is difficult and may not be a long-term fix.   The B&O pacific was no cost to me and I lost $80 on the Rock Island.  The parts value from both would minimize my loss.  The remains after gutting out motors, lights, and one tender could make an interesting display locomotive or scrap yard scene.

[mmagliaro]

I don't think the tender pickup in the 1st gen Model Power steam is any better than the wiper system used in the Rivarossi steam.  They are both just axle wiper systems that pick up power from half the wheels.  In fact, the MP tender pickups were so flakey that I wouldn't be surprised if they were actually worse than the ones in the old Rivarossi engines.

I do agree that I would not try to sell these engines off unless you do it with the clear caveat to the buyer that they are non-running "parts engines".

As for harvesting parts, remember, there are other really nice parts on the MP steam, if you ever do any kitbashing.  The rods, valve gear, and cab, for example, are easily separable parts and they are very nicely made.   If you decide to cannibalize these engines, please send me a PM.

[glakedylan]

i am wondering if the earlier version of this locomotive
could be fixed by purchasing drive train from the latest version
IIRC, they claimed they were added and notch and key to the axles and drivers
but, re: spookshow that was not the case (or it could not be visually confirmed)
but the newer versions do seem to be free of the quartering issue
just am not able to compare one to the other as the later generatilon runs well
and i do not want to undo that with these old hands and big fingers
just an idea FWIW


(given that MRC offers parts necessary for the Model Power loco)


sincerely
Gary

[mmagliaro]

I'm sure you could make it all go back together with a new drive train, but I can't imagine it being worth it.  You need the new tender with all-wheel pickup to make the engine run worth a darn.  By the time you pay for new drivers, a new tender chassis, disassemble the whole thing including the valve gear and rods, and rewire it internally,  it does not seem remotely worth it, at least to me.

 (The wiring --- you will surely have to do because all the internal wiring on the first run was awful.   The wires will break off every which way, especially at the driver cover plate, and they are not easy to fix).

[Albert in N]

mmagliario, sent PM.  Think I will sell, trade, or cannibalize and be done with Model Power.  Sure, these are nice-looking steam locomotives, but they cannot reliably even pull themselves, let alone a train.