3D Printing: You get what you pay for

[sirenwerks]

I believe Dave wanted to verify that the finished product would be significantly better than the Shapeways version...

That it is, that it is.  I'd say that's on par with what quality manufacturers are releasing.

[Dave Schneider]

Hi guys,

Lets see if I can cover all the questions. Happy to do so.

I heard back from the vendor,  Advanced Design Concepts (ww.adcinc1.com). They are happy working on small jobs but folks should realize that this is an extremely small part of their business. I went many days without hearing back and didn't bother them endlessly.

There is a slight difference in the files sent to the two vendors. As usual, Bryan Bussey was extremely helpful and generous with his time and information, and indicated that the file needed to be scaled (slightly) to account for a small variation in the printer calibration. In doing so, the vertical grab to the left of the door disappeared and I didn't realize it before submitting it, but otherwise I think that it is the same file. The difference in the increased relief visible in the ADC model may be the improved resolution of their printer. I think that the size of various components could be reduced somewhat, but overall I am happy with the results.

I inquired about doing an entire tray. For this model the tray will accommodate  22 sides. They could do that for around $400. SInce I had never used this vendor and printer, I was conservative and only did 2 sides. I need to think about whether I want to go the route of printing all the sides I need. For an entire tray, it is still $36+ for one car. There other door variations (another 8 ft doors, about 250 cars with a 10 ft door, and the original hinged door), so it would be cool to print up a mixed tray with all the variations. We'll see.

Finally, I need to credit Barry Clements (who does the cool bulk trailer designs) for the work on the 3D model. I supplied the 2D drawings and photos, but he turned it into a nice design.

Happy to answer more questions and welcome comments.

Best wishes, Dave

[wcfn100]

I inquired about doing an entire tray. For this model the tray will accommodate  22 sides. They could do that for around $400. SInce I had never used this vendor and printer, I was conservative and only did 2 sides.

Thanks Dave.  The car looks really good.  I would say it's still a step under Prefactory but I'll save that until you get a coat of paint on it and see the final result.

I still want to try the vendor here in Castle Rock, but haven't had the time to flatten out out any of my drawings. 

On top of combining the different doors to the tray, maybe if a good situation is found with a vendor, some of us could try and combine drawings to fill the build area.

Jason

[Dave Schneider]

Thanks Jason. I would be willing to work towards filling a try at some point to reduce the cost a bit. Not sure how that would get priced though and it would probably have to go through one person to them redistribute. I was very pleased with the turn around time. They printed my job a couple days after my giving them the green light, but perhaps I was lucky.

As for Shapeways, it is too bad that they botched the orientation. I would love to see the side printed flat so the wax/shadow artifact wasn't in play. That is why I decided to just do the sides, and not an entire car. They did refund the cost of printing after discussion. My point was while I realize that one can't chose an orientation, I had thought it to be in their best interest for THEM to decide how to produce the best possible print. After some polite discussion, they did offer to try to specify the orientation. I decided to go another route, but it was interesting to have their customer service rep make this offer.

Best wishes, Dave

[wazzou]

I would tend to think the way to go is to build a good master with these two sides and the OEM parts you've acquired and make castings from that master to keep the per car costs down.

[High Hood]

That second car looks sooo much better!  Just a thought from this: would a 3D printing company that catered just to modeling be successful?

[ednadolski]

would a 3D printing company that catered just to modeling be successful?

As they say, if you want to make a small fortune in the model railroad business, start with a big one 

Ed

[ljudice]

As they say, if you want to make a small fortune in the model railroad business, start with a big one 

Truer words have never been spoken on Railwire, from what I understand from people who know... 

[jmlaboda]

I would tend to think the way to go is to build a good master with these two sides and the OEM parts you've acquired and make castings from that master to keep the per car costs down.

I remember it being talked about several years ago that rapid prototyping may be a good way to create masters that then could be used to create molds which would be used to produce resin parts and models... from the look of the better quality piece it would be an excellent way for models to be produced, possibly with the type of resin that was used recently by Zsolt Kemeny to produce a shell for one of the Rock Island's St. Louis Car Co. motor cars in N, urethane resin calleed Sika Biresin G27... I will tell you the resin looks, feels and acts like styrene even though it is not.  It would be the type of resin I would use if I were able to produce some car parts or sides.

Maybe it can yet be something to look into further if I can gain a better understanding of how to draw parts like car sides.  I know that I will definitely be wanting some passenger car sides done in this type of resin if it means getting cars that I want.  Lets hope so anyways.

[Greyryder]

I remember it being talked about several years ago that rapid prototyping may be a good way to create masters that then could be used to create molds which would be used to produce resin parts and models...

I know for a fact that some of the Star Trek resin model kit makers are doing this.

[peteski]

I know for a fact that some of the Star Trek resin model kit makers are doing this.

So do the manufacturers of resin model cars.  For that matter I'm pretty sure the many of the recent Showcase Miniatures wonderfully detailed models started as RP printed masters.  There are faint striations (RP printing artifact) in some of their castings.

[jimmo]

So do the manufacturers of resin model cars.  For that matter I'm pretty sure the many of the recent Showcase Miniatures wonderfully detailed models started as RP printed masters.  There are faint striations (RP printing artifact) in some of their castings.

Willmodels does not (yet) but Showcase's Walter Vail is a master at RP creations (Image Replicas), he even has his own store on Shapeways: http://www.shapeways.com/designer/wbv?s=0#more-products

[Catt]

The day Walt does a Forney I'm in trouble.I have a park on the home layout that only needs a Forney to finish it.

[coosvalley]

I inquired about doing an entire tray. For this model the tray will accommodate  22 sides. They could do that for around $400. SInce I had never used this vendor and printer, I was conservative and only did 2 sides. I need to think about whether I want to go the route of printing all the sides I need. For an entire tray, it is still $36+ for one car. There other door variations (another 8 ft doors, about 250 cars with a 10 ft door, and the original hinged door), so it would be cool to print up a mixed tray with all the variations. We'll see.

It is very encouraging to see a RP project that comes out looking this good, and the price seems in the ballpark of "reasonable", at least for a rare,otherwise un-available prototype...

Dave,
I know you've been on the quest for FM's for a while, and seeing this print job tells me its possible, so I wonder if you can guess how many FM's would fit in a tray?...I'm curious to see what it would cost per shell,(ballpark) as I know lots if us want some "special loco" that can probably only be acquired through some sort of RP....Imagine some of the Shapeways projects we've been seeing (DT6-6-2000, for instance), but printed by this new source?...The future of RP is encouraging.....

[randgust]

I did an experiment with a Shapeways shell on resin casting master and hit the following issues:

1)  LOTS AND LOTS of sanding to get the shell smooth.  Did it but I could have scratchbuilt a shell from styrene in the same time.

2)  Even after the bestine soak, the shell was porous.   First attempt at molding forced air out of the master and I got tiny bubbles in the mold over any area that had exposed 'grain' at the edges of the print.  Insets on things like the sanding hatches were the worst.

3)  After sealing the shell with Badger (thin paint and soaked in well), the molding worked much better, but the master shell began to warp - a lot.  It's now borderline unusable.   I didn't see that coming.  I am seeing some rather significant warping of Shapeways parts after painting with thinner wall sections, and I don't think I'm the only one.  If there's a 'fatal error' in this, that might be it.     I've got eight-year-old resin parts that are fine, and two-year-old shapeways parts that are warped and more brittle.

4)  Abandoned project and watching threads like this for a better printer.