Author Topic: New Atlas GP7/9 (40 005 3xx series) /ESU 59925 Decoder Issues  (Read 1937 times)

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rickb773

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I find it hard to believe that I seemed to be the only person with problems putting a decoder in the new Atlas GP7/9 run that was released in January. I am not a fan of sound (noise or cost) so I purchased a silver series one and was delighted the shell could take older Atlas SP7 shells so I bought 2 more.

The box says decoder ready. That is a flat-out lie. Yes, the gold series has a DCC decoder and sound and the silver series has a plug for a decoder but until very, very recently no one made a 24-pin plug in decoder to fit the ESU socket.

I contacted ESU and they said yes they had a non-sound decoder to fit it: the 59925 LokPilot 5 NANO DCC 24 pin. I finally received 3 (initially very tough to find) and went to plug them in. You have to remove 2 screws, turn the board over, remove the existing plug and plug in the new decoder (not easy with 24 very narrow contacts).

Then I went to program them with JMRI which does not have a NANO on their list. ESU told me to try the LokPilot 5 Micro DCC specs and then to try the LokPilot 5 DCC specs. In both cases I can program the road# and a speed table (first time only) but one unit has no lights, one has cab light only and one has long end light only. All remain fixed no matter the direction.

Most CVs return red errors 308 (no acknowledgement). (Single CV modifications do not work either. ESU is puzzled since lights should work out of the box. ESU says they can be programmed with an ESU LokProgrammer ($145-$200). They do not have the 59925 or a new Atlas GP7/9 to test.

Track and wheels are cleaned, all 3 engines have had the decoder chip reseated.

This is on the JMRI user board (no responses). The only club member with a LokProgrammer lives cross state and I am sure the local hobby shop does not do this for free.

@peteski do your magic!

jagged ben

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Re: New Atlas GP7/9 (40 005 3xx series) /ESU 59925 Decoder Issues
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2024, 02:36:56 PM »
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There has been a lot of discussion about the new SD7/9 boards and decoders which are the same deal.

For example https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=56697.0
And
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=58111.0

Not sure if those threads will help with the programming issues but it's a start.
Are you running the latest version of JMRI?  It's not ESUs fault if the JMRI folks aren't updating decoder profiles.

Adding decoders to Atlas locos has always involved taking apart the mech.

bbussey

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Re: New Atlas GP7/9 (40 005 3xx series) /ESU 59925 Decoder Issues
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2024, 03:48:42 PM »
+3
Doesn’t sound like a lie to me. The model is designed to take the appropriate ESU LokSound and LokPilot decoders. They both can be fully programmed with the LokProgrammer. I don’t see an issue.
Bryan Busséy
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peteski

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Re: New Atlas GP7/9 (40 005 3xx series) /ESU 59925 Decoder Issues
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2024, 05:28:29 PM »
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Rick, I just recently evaluated that new Atlas E24 board. The E24 connector is there to accept a decoder.  No lies.  :)  You are just likely frustrated with this experience.

E24 DCC connector interface was introduced by ESU, and they have been making decoder for it for probably over 2 years. But those were all LokSound decoders.  It is true that non-sound decoder (ESU 59925 LokPilot) has only recently become available. Digitrax has also just produced a decoder with the E24 connector. I heard that more manufacturers are jumping on the E24 bandwagon.

While that connector is rather small and very low-profile (perfect for tight installs in smaller scale models), I never found installing a decoder to be problematic or difficult. But gentle touch is needed.

As I see it, Atlas made a good choice using the E24 connector in their models.  You can buy a DC loco and simply by removing the dummy plug you can make it a silent DCC or sound DCC loco. It is 100% plug-and-play, since even a speaker is already installed.

Yes, due to  the small size of the E24 connector and very little vertical clearance under the light board, you do have to loosen couple of screws and snap the decoder on, but that still sure beats doing a complete wire-in decoder install.

You were not clear as to whether you installed the 59925 decoder on all 3 of your locos and they all have some issues.   If they all have problems than I doubt it is caused by either a faulty decoder or faulty light board.

I'm confused by your "cab light only" statement There is no cab light on that board. There are only 2 LEDs on-board:  front and rear headlights.

I also assume you first tested them on DC (with the original "dummy" DC E24 plug installed), and they all ran fine (motor and headlights were working as expected).  If not, then the models themselves (not the decoders) would have been problematic.  If you don't have a DC throttle, just take a standard fresh 9V battery and touch its' terminals to the loco's wheels and observe its motor and  lights behavior. That is a good substitute for a DC throttle. Or you can place the loco on a piece of track on your workbench and touch the battery terminals to the track.

Whether you have tested them on DC or not, first troubleshooting step I recommend is to reinstall the DC "dummy" plug and test them on DC.  If the motor and lights work correctly that verifies that the light board inside the model (including the E24 connector) is working correctly.

You might also want to clean the wheels when the model is still set up for DC.  Yes, these are factory-fresh locos, but I have seen the wheel blackening or some oil/grease on treads cause conductivity issues, even in new locos.  Cleaning the wheels will eliminate that possible problem.

If that's the case, reinstall the LokSound decoder, then let's go back to basics.  Instead of using DecoderPro, just put it on your  command station's programming track and reset the decoder by writing 8 to CV8.   Then tilt the loco for couple of seconds to disconnect one set of wheels from the track (not needed, but won't hurt to do).  After this you should be able to address and run the loco using short address 3. It should also have the standard directional headlights turned  on by F0 button on the throttle. Just like any other brand of DCC decoder.

Also, what brand of DCC system are you using?  Since this is a non-sound decoder, you should have no problems reading and writing any of the standard CVs in the decoder (CV 1-6 and CV29 for example).  No need for LokProgrammer for any of this.

Report your findings after the above procedure.




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rickb773

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Re: New Atlas GP7/9 (40 005 3xx series) /ESU 59925 Decoder Issues
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2024, 05:42:40 PM »
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All 3 locos ran fine as DC and all 3 exhibit the same characteristics once the 59925s were installed (with the exception of whether the engine had 1) no lights (3ngines #1); 2 forward (cab) light (engine #2); 3) long hood light (engine #3). I have reseated the lights on all 3 engines once and will now do so again.

@bbussey when you say "Decoder Ready" you should not have to wait 5-6 months for a decoder. Reasonable folks would expect you get the engine, plug in a decoder and go.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2024, 05:45:36 PM by rickb773 »

peteski

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Re: New Atlas GP7/9 (40 005 3xx series) /ESU 59925 Decoder Issues
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2024, 05:45:55 PM »
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All 3 locos ran fine as DC and all 3 exhibit the same characteristics once the 59925s were installed (with the exception of whether the engine had 1) no lights (3ngines #1); 2 forward (cab) light (engine #2); 3) long hood light (engine #3). I have reseated the lights on all 3 engines once and will now do so again.

I guess to me  "cab light" meant "light inside the cab's interior". First time I have heard that phrase used to describe a forward headlight.  Have to adjust my way of thinking.
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bbussey

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Re: New Atlas GP7/9 (40 005 3xx series) /ESU 59925 Decoder Issues
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2024, 08:15:51 PM »
+2
@bbussey when you say "Decoder Ready" you should not have to wait 5-6 months for a decoder. Reasonable folks would expect you get the engine, plug in a decoder and go.

The LokSound boards are decoders, are they not?  "Decoder Ready" doesn't mean non-sound decoder-ready only.  It means ready for a decoder, of which compliant decoders exist.
Bryan Busséy
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peteski

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Re: New Atlas GP7/9 (40 005 3xx series) /ESU 59925 Decoder Issues
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2024, 08:46:42 PM »
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The LokSound boards are decoders, are they not?  "Decoder Ready" doesn't mean non-sound decoder-ready only.  It means ready for a decoder, of which compliant decoders exist.

First of all, the E24 is the most recent type of decoder interface introduced to the DCC market, and I recall some issues with the DCC officials even accepting it as a recognized standard (not sure if they eventually did or not). But as Bryan mentioned, the ESU E24 LokSound decoders were available quite a bit earlier (more than a year) than the Atlas loco with E24 connector.  Atlas loco includes a speaker, so that seems to indicate that they were mainly thinking of the modelers wanting sound (since Atlas does sell this model with a LokSound decoder factory installed).

The only delay was with someone providing a non-sound E24 decoder.  ESU finally stepped up with their E24 LokPilot nano (which is basically the LokSound board with all the sound generating components depopulated. Now others are starting to produce E24 based decoders.  When new standards get introduced to the market (especially when multiple small companies are involved) things don't always go smoothly.  I would keep that in mind.  None of this seems to be related to the Rick's problem.
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nstars

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Re: New Atlas GP7/9 (40 005 3xx series) /ESU 59925 Decoder Issues
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2024, 02:48:02 PM »
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Peteski, the E24 connector is not a standard connector. Main reason is that there is only one manufacture of E24 connectors. As long as that won’t change it won’t be a standard.

I guess the problem is that the light functions of ESU decoders are much more complex and require several CV’s to program correctly. Most likely the settings for the light functions are not set correctly and without a Lokprogrammer this is for most people difficult to correct, even with Decoder Pro.

Last point is probably a little bit nitpicking, but for me ‘decoder ready’ is not the same as ‘sound decoder ready’.  :)

Marc

peteski

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Re: New Atlas GP7/9 (40 005 3xx series) /ESU 59925 Decoder Issues
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2024, 03:06:01 PM »
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True that ESU decoder lightning functions can be complex, but we are just dealing here with the standard default front and rear headlights.

When a LokPilot decoder has the default factory installed firmware installed, the front and rear headlights are directional, mapped to "Headlight" and "Rearlight" AUX outputs, and controlled  by the F0 function. That is the default. Period. Nothing complex about it. It should just work when installed on the Atlas E24 decoder light board.  That is why I suggested decoder reset (in case something in the decoder settings got scrambled).
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ridinshotgun

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Re: New Atlas GP7/9 (40 005 3xx series) /ESU 59925 Decoder Issues
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2024, 03:09:58 PM »
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Peteski, the E24 connector is not a standard connector. Main reason is that there is only one manufacture of E24 connectors. As long as that won’t change it won’t be a standard.

Marc

If that were true why is the PluX22 interface an approved standard interface?  Only one manufacturer makes that type of connection.

rickb773

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Re: New Atlas GP7/9 (40 005 3xx series) /ESU 59925 Decoder Issues
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2024, 03:16:30 PM »
+1
My apologies, I did not mean to start a spitting contest on whether the manufactured lied to us. You are merely seeing my 7 months of frustration with this issue. (The arguers can go to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2hUdF_rbyU.)  Atlas is still my favorite locomotive manufacturer (I hate Kato couplers) comprising almost 50% of my almost 70-year collection.

I must ask: am I the only one who has failed this GP7/59925 process?

Background: I initially contacted Digitrax about the needed 24 pin decoder and they said they had not even seen the specs yet. I contacted ESU (evidently the only game in town) and they said they had the 59925 for this engine. It then took over 4 weeks to find the first 59925 decoder and another 3 weeks for the next two.

My background. Came from a high-tech computer background but 12 years of retirement has left me technically obsolete and eye and hand problems are creeping in. Living on Social Security greatly restricts funds (hence “decoder ready” + “decoder” engines). I am actively trying to thin my 70-year collection (101 engines; 451 freight cars; 17 passenger cars to around 40/200/10) so my hobby illiterate wife does not have to deal with it (she will consider the trash alternative) when I kick the bucket.

As time permits, I will photograph the steps through this process.
Stand by.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2024, 04:34:11 PM by rickb773 »

nstars

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Re: New Atlas GP7/9 (40 005 3xx series) /ESU 59925 Decoder Issues
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2024, 04:14:06 PM »
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If that were true why is the PluX22 interface an approved standard interface?  Only one manufacturer makes that type of connection.

I’m talking about the manufacture of the connector and not the manufacture of the decoder board. The PluX22 connector is quite standard and widely available.

Marc

nstars

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Re: New Atlas GP7/9 (40 005 3xx series) /ESU 59925 Decoder Issues
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2024, 04:18:03 PM »
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True that ESU decoder lightning functions can be complex, but we are just dealing here with the standard default front and rear headlights.

When a LokPilot decoder has the default factory installed firmware installed, the front and rear headlights are directional, mapped to "Headlight" and "Rearlight" AUX outputs, and controlled  by the F0 function. That is the default. Period. Nothing complex about it. It should just work when installed on the Atlas E24 decoder light board.  That is why I suggested decoder reset (in case something in the decoder settings got scrambled).

Peteski, it should indeed be programmed conform the standard but I guess it isn’t. And I do know Lokpilot decoders do have extra features when programming functions. The only way to test it is to read the decoders.

Marc


nstars

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Re: New Atlas GP7/9 (40 005 3xx series) /ESU 59925 Decoder Issues
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2024, 04:22:20 PM »
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Background: I initially contacted Digitrax about the needed 24 pin decoder and they said they had not even seen the specs yet. I contacted ESU (evidently the only game in town) and they said they had the 59925 for this engine. It then took over 4 weeks to find the first 59925 decoder and another 3 weeks for the next two.

Zimo also announced the MN140E24 decoder. I don’t know if it’s already available.

Marc