Turnouts with LIVE frogs

[OldEastRR]

So the new ME turnout I was planning to install has an electrically isolated frog. And Atlas switches have that too. What if I don't want isolated frogs? Don't want to mess with wires, a toggle switch, or an expensive switch machine with frog-polarity contacts? PECO turnouts still have live frogs, right?  Whatever .. I'm certainly glad I won't be building any more layouts if I'd have to wire every frigging frog with special contacts and toggle switches. Certainly don't envy people who will have to. I guess the plan to is to make model railroading more complicated and expensive, for some reason.
Oh yeah I know the perfectionists LOOOVE isolated frogs and powered switch machines, and that's fine for them. Enjoy yourselves. I'll just settle for running only six-axle-powered locos over my DEAD frog.

[peteski]

Nice rant Al!  You are starting to sound like me! 

And as you mentioned - nobody's forcing you to wire those friggin' frogs. Leave them dead.  That will be the same as having a plastic frog. Done! Just the way you like it.

Peco electrofrog turnouts do not have a separate frog. Power is delivered solely through the closure rails, via points touching the stock rails. That is not very reliable.  In that setup powering the frog via switch machine or a switch (and also automatically the closure rails and points) made perfect sense, but if closure rails are factory-hard-wired to the stock rails (like in  Atlas C55), leaving the frog dead is perfectly acceptable.  No need to rant.

[amato1969]

Oh yeah I know the perfectionists LOOOVE isolated frogs and powered switch machines, and that's fine for them. Enjoy yourselves. I'll just settle for running only six-axle-powered locos over my DEAD frog.

Whoa, random rant alert!  Personally, I wire my frogs for performance/reliability, not to be a perfectionist.

  Frank

[robert3985]

If you don't wire the frog up, then it's dead.

An "isolated frog" is a "dead" frog until you wire it up.

You can't have both a "live frog" and a "dead/isolated" frog at the same time, unless you only want your switch to not change the track your engine will run on. 

Just don't wire it up and you'll have just what you want from a simplicity aspect.

On the other hand, don't wire it up and maybe some of your engines won't run on it...even big steamers or some C-trucked diesels...it depends on how long the frog is, how the model is wired up, and you can't count on engines being wired well.

Being a "perfectionist" has nothing to do with excellent running track.  It has to do with reliability, and the fact is (FACT...not opinion) that your layout will be more reliable with live, powered frogs on each and every turnout...and with 22AWG solid copper feeders on each and every piece of current-carrying rail.

So, if you're not willing to do the work for your track to be the most reliable, then you'll pay the price...one of which you're already willing to pay by limiting yourself to engines with longer trucks.

I've got a single, old ME turnouts on my layout that was an experiment to see if short dead frogs were reliable and I've never had any problems with it, even with my Consolidations and B-B trucked diesels.

Peco Insulfrog turnouts have plastic frogs...so they can never be wired to have live frogs, but, on the layouts that I've built for customers who also didn't want that extra wiring and/or switch machines, the over-center switch on the Peco Insulfrogs work pretty good...even if you have to keep the point toes clean and debris-free.  At least it's a simple solution, and when your power doesn't re-direct or your engine stops on the turnout, you always know what the problem is.

Break out the brass brush and the can of air and the problem is gone about 98% of the time.

Do that enough over the life of your layout and you'll waste far more of your time than if you had decided to power your turnouts' frogs during construction.

If you think you might one day want/need live frogs on your turnouts, get turnouts with metal frogs which can be wired later to have live frogs, but work okay as dead-frog turnouts with longer trucked engines.  I'd recommend either Peco Unifrogs/Electrofrogs or ME #6's because of their over-center spring switch mechanisms...which can be removed pretty easily if you decide to ever go with live frogs and work really well without having to purchase any switch-throw mechnisms since it's built in.

As for switch motors...ya don't need 'em to have live frogs on your turnout.  Yep, you need an electrical switch or some solid-state thingy for sure, but when I first got started I was manually throwing my turnouts by using a small slide switch, connected to my piano-wire sliding throwing mechanisms. This took a bit of work, mainly cutting & bending piano wire, drilling a couple of holes in the sliding electrical switch's handle, making the mount and bearing block out of wood, getting it all positioned and fastened in place under the module, then wiring it all up.

Photo (1) - My old home-made sliding switch throw/powered frog mechanism using a slide switch & piano wire:


This was pretty simple, very cheap, durable and reliable...and provided a live frog so I could run whatever I wanted up top...but, yes, took a bit of work.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[ednadolski]

What if I don't want isolated frogs? Don't want to mess with wires, a toggle switch, or an expensive switch machine with frog-polarity contacts? PECO turnouts still have live frogs, right?  Whatever .. I'm certainly glad I won't be building any more layouts if I'd have to wire every frigging frog with special contacts and toggle switches.

I guess there is always the dead-rail option.  You'd never have to worry about a single track wire again.

Ed

[bigdawgks]

Or switch to 3 rail track and convert all of your locomotives

[thomasjmdavis]

Non powered frogs and magnetic couplers-



https://play-trains.com/best-wooden-train-sets/

[mmagliaro]

Well, hold on here.  This isn't a choice between having a dead frog or a live frog.  I think the OP is lamenting that the
older switches gave you a live frog that automatically power-routed without anything needed by the user.

As Peteski pointed out, Peco electrofrog turnouts worked like this (I don't know if they still do), and the older ME turnouts worked like this.
They powered the frog from the point rails so you had a live frog and powered route selection, and you didn't have to wire anything.

OldEastRR, I admit that was handy, but in practice I never found it to be reliable enough to depend on it, and this is going back to the 1980s when I built my first layouts that used ME turnouts.  While it takes more initial work to wire in something like a small slide switch (or turnout motor with extra contacts, or however you choose to do it), the reliability of having an external device power that frog is something you will not regret.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Especially with how easy it is to use a Frog Juicer.

[jdcolombo]

Honestly, wiring the frogs just isn't that hard these days if you are using DCC, with electronic frog juicers that eliminate the need for any kind of SPDT switch to change polarity.  Admittedly, this is somewhat more complicated than not wiring frogs at all, but as Robert points out, the trade-off is reliability.

I would never build an N scale layout these days without wiring the frogs.  The widespread use of sound decoders means that a dead frog is an invitation to sound dropouts and decoder re-starting, as well as stalling issues with short-wheelbase engines.  It may never happen, but I have seen (and experienced) this often enough that the extra time needed to wire frogs is simply a must for me.  I've got 80+ Atlas Code 55 switches on my layout (plus a few hand-built ones); all the frogs are wired.

John C.

[nickelplate759]

Thread Drift Alert...

About 30 years ago I went on a business trip to Singapore.      I went to lunch with a colleague (also American) at a Chinese restaurant.  They gave us an English-language menu (English is one of the four official languages of Singapore) , and one of the entrees was listed as "Live Frog".

We didn't order it.

That night I asked one of our local colleagues about it.    She described to me, in great detail, how the frog would be served, secured to a cutting board with some kind of netting, and brought to the table along with suitable tools for the diner to kill and eat it.   I'm sure my face registered more than a little disquiet and puzzlement.

At that point, she burst out laughing and informed me that, no, it wasn't served live ("That would be barbaric!" she said), merely that, like nearly all seafood there, it was alive in the kitchen up until it was time to cook it.


So - Live frogs in my turnouts?  Yes please.  Live frogs on my plate?  No, thank you.

[Dave V]

Being a "perfectionist" has nothing to do with excellent running track.  It has to do with reliability, and the fact is (FACT...not opinion) that your layout will be more reliable with live, powered frogs on each and every turnout...and with 22AWG solid copper feeders on each and every piece of current-carrying rail.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

This needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

@OldEastRR , didn't you just start a thread about locomotive performance not too long ago? I promise that regardless of what locomotive you use, it will perform better if you take the time to deliberately wire your frogs rather than relying on the point contact with an Electrofrog. My Colorado Midland RR in N scale requires a little extra cleaning and care around the points and the hinges because of this. By contrast, my HOn3 RGS layout has all frogs powered by Tam Valley Frog Juicers, which allows me to run a tiny wheelbased 0-4-0 Porter without a keep-alive whose wheelbase is shorter than an ME #6 frog!

If you don't want to put in the work for reliable, trouble-free trackwork, you'll be dealing with stalls and derailments. I don't know about some guys, but for me, nothing kills a fun vibe like a derailment or even a momentary stall. I'm not the best tracklayer out there (not by a long shot), but I do insist on zero stalls and zero derailments. Your milage may vary, but to me, there's no fun in model railroading until--at a minimum--all dead spots and potential derailments have been banished for all time. Only then do I worry about the appearance of the track.

One last bit germane to your previous thread. Reliable trackwork is key to ruling out sources of performance problems with locomotives and rolling stock. For example, you can't blame 60% of your locomotive fleet stalling at the same place (or derailing) on the locomotive manufacturer.

[Dave V]

BTW, I love Peco's new Unifrog. Super-short frog in case you want to tempt fate and leave it unpowered (but short enough for even the shortest wheelbase locomotives to maintain electrical contact) and pre-wired for those of us who like to power our frogs. I used mostly Peco Unifrog #5s in HOn3 on the RGS and they are extremely reliable. Like all Peco turnoust they can be a little tight in places and I did have to file the guardrails a bit at the Ridgway yard throat, but otherwise totally worth it.

[Chris333]

I almost didn't even open this.


Glad I did

[Dave V]

I sense much anger in OP. Anger… fear… aggression... The dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice.