Question about quality N gauge turnouts

[wm3798]

Here I am!  There's nothing wrong with Atlas sectional or flex c80, and it can be used with Peco turnouts.  My layout is mostly built using these products.  I've installed a couple of Atlas c80 streamline turnouts, and it's true, the shallow flangeways do not play nice with older wheelset.  I use a jeweler's file to open them up a bit because one file is much more economical that 600 wheels.

I like the sectional track for establishing curves, but I do go back and solder all the rail joints to ensure reliable performance.

While Atlas didn't offer anything but 9.75, 11, and 19 inch radius, ConCor at one time offered 12-3/8" sectional curves, I believe manufactured by Shinohara or some such.  If you can put your hands on some, it's pretty handy.

Flex is good, and worked properly, can help you fill in the gaps.

The geometry of Peco mediums is pretty close to Atlas #4 (or whatever the basic 5" turnout is) so they can almost be used interchangeably. 

I recommend having a Dremel Tool and a soldering pencil handy, and there's almost nothing you can't do.

But start by deciding what your minimum is going to be, and stick to it like an earth magnet to a refrigerator door.  My passenger loops have a minimum of 11" (on a 36" table) which works fine with older equipment with truck mounted Rapidos.  11" is always functional, if not pretty.  12-3/8" is obviously better, and will still fit comfortably on a 30" table.

There are two key issues that support reliable operation: 
1.  Smooth track connections (soldered joints in good alignment)
2.  Electrical continuity (soldered joints in good alignment)



Do you see the theme here?

Lee

[Howard1975]

Thank you everyone that has replied, you have all given me a lot to think about. My plan currently, is to use sectional track for the tight curves, and maybe some flex track in long straight sections, or very wide sweeping curves. I don't want to bend the flex track to a sharp bend. I already have lots of Atlas 9.75, 11 and 19 inch curves, and I have some vintage MRC 12-3/8 inch radius curves already. And I'm waiting for some of the Con-Cor 12-3/8 inch curves coming in the mail. I have read (in some of my N scale literature) that the vintage MRC track is the same as the vintage Con-Cor track. My MRC track was made in Italy.

I also have a small amount of 8 inch curved sectional track from Minitrains AHM, and some 9 inch radius curves from Minitrains AHM and Garnet. Made in Italy and Yugoslavia. And I also have some of the Aurora Postage Stamp Trains 7.5 inch radius turnouts (produced by Minitrix), but they are rough in the frog area. Would need a lot of work to get smooth. I might use some of my 8 and 9 inch radius curves, in certain areas where only short 4 axle diesels and 40 foot freight cars will venture.

I'm not sure what brand of turnouts I will be using, but it will probably be a mixture of Atlas and Peco turnouts. All six of my Peco code 80 turnouts are in very good condition, so of course, I might as well use them on my layout. A few of my vintage Atlas and Casido code 80 turnouts are in poor condition, but some are in fair or good condition. If I needed, I will purchase some better turnouts, either Peco or Atlas.

My thoughts on the cork versus foam roadbed, I might stick to cork roadbed, but I don't know yet. I have more experience with cork, and I believe that it's more firm and stable.

I'm designing this layout to be fun to operate, without a lot of problems or complications. Which is why I'm staying strictly with DC power packs, and vintage equipment with truck mounted couplers. It's more forgiving on sharp radius curves.

Too be honest, if I had a lot more space, I would be designing and building a HO scale layout. But I don't have a lot of space living in an apartment, so I'm building this N scale layout to fit on a 30 inch wide folding table.

 I'm keeping my HO scale trains in their boxes, it's mostly Atlas sectional track, and vintage Athearn Blue Box locomotives, and Athearn and Roundhouse MDC type freight cars. I like those old kits, they are fun to build, and I usually upgrade the horn hook couplers to Kadee couplers. And various other brands of freight cars (Atlas, Con-Cor, Walthers, Ulrich, Silver Streak, Quality Craft Models, Train Miniature, Bowser, Roco, Bachmann, Bachmann Plus and Spectrum, Life-Like, Life-Like 1000 and 2000, Model Power, Varney, Tyco, Mantua, AHM, IHC, Lima, Rivarossi, Lionel HO, Marx HO, American Flyer HO, etc), can be upgraded with better wheels and body mounted Kadee couplers as needed.

Perhaps if I was a wealthy man with lot's of space, I would have a couple layouts. My main layout would be vintage HO scale Athearn Blue Box, Stewart Hobbies (Kato) and Atlas Yellow Box era diesel locomotives. Perhaps some of the newer diesels produced by Kato in Japan, and Life-Like 2000, and Atlas in China. And vintage steam locomotives from Mantua, Bowser, Roundhouse, and Varney. And of course locomotives from Hobbytown of Boston.  And maybe some vintage brass locomotives.

And a smaller layout for my vintage N scale equipment. Mostly Arnold Rapido, Minitrix, Life-Like and Kato produced locomotives. And some newer locomotives (Kato, Atlas, Walthers, Athearn N scale) that are known to be reliable and dependable.  Been visiting the excellent N Scale Encyclopedia, spookshow website for at least 10 years.

For both HO and N scale, I would keep with DC power packs, I don't need the complications of DCC.

  And this is coming from a person that likes building desktop computers, for the past 28 years.  And repairing desktop and laptops computers for the same amount of time. I have been using computers for 35 years, and I like to play around with different operating systems, including MS-DOS, Windows 3.11, 95 and 98, 2000, XP, Vista, etc. And i have been using the Linux operating system (you might have heard of Red Hat, Debian or Ubuntu, for example) for the past 25 years. And I have a small amount of experience in computer programming and website development. I'm not afraid of modern technology or electronics. 

But I like simple and reliable model trains, that are rugged and easy to repair. I'm also like budget friendly trains. And to be honest, I would like to avoid the Zamak zinc rot pest issue. It was common in some very old trains, and unfortunately, now it's a problem with a lot of China produced things. Western Europe had basically solved the problem by the 1940's or 1950's, the United States a little later by the late 1950's or 1960's, Eastern Europe still had quality control issues in the 1970s. And China still has problems today, with zinc pest rot.

Most N scale trains produced in Western Europe, the USA and Japan should generally be safe from Zinc rot pest. There are exceptions of course. But I need to be more careful with anything from Eastern Europe, and especially careful with anything from China.

[peteski]

And this is coming from a person that likes building desktop computers, for the past 28 years.  And repairing desktop and laptops computers for the same amount of time. I have been using computers for 35 years, and I like to play around with different operating systems, including MS-DOS, Windows 3.11, 95 and 98, 2000, XP, Vista, etc. And i have been using the Linux operating system (you might have heard of Red Hat, Debian or Ubuntu, for example) for the past 25 years. And I have a small amount of experience in computer programming and website development. I'm not afraid of modern technology or electronics.

Quite a few members here (me included) are either workigin at  large computer companies and have been for a long time, or are computer geeks as a hobby.  It seems that model railroading and computing often go hand-in-hand.

But I like simple and reliable model trains, that are rugged and easy to repair. I'm also like budget friendly trains. And to be honest, I would like to avoid the Zamak zinc rot pest issue. It was common in some very old trains, and unfortunately, now it's a problem with a lot of China produced things. Western Europe had basically solved the problem by the 1940's or 1950's, the United States a little later by the late 1950's or 1960's, Eastern Europe still had quality control issues in the 1970s. And China still has problems today, with zinc pest rot.

Most N scale trains produced in Western Europe, the USA and Japan should generally be safe from Zinc rot pest. There are exceptions of course. But I need to be more careful with anything from Eastern Europe, and especially careful with anything from China.

Yes, I was also surprised to recently discover that a fairly new Tomix model (made in the last 10 years) developed the dreaded zinc pest. It was Made in China.

As for worries about early Easter European N scale models developing zinc pest, no worries (at least Piko models).  The only metal in them (besides the motor of course) are large slabs of lead weights.  The shell and frame are plastic.







It's all lead!   

[Howard1975]

Quite a few members here (me included) are either workigin at  large computer companies and have been for a long time, or are computer geeks as a hobby.  It seems that model railroading and computing often go hand-in-hand.
Yes, I was also surprised to recently discover that a fairly new Tomix model (made in the last 10 years) developed the dreaded zinc pest. It was Made in China.

As for worries about early Easter European N scale models developing zinc pest, no worries (at least Piko models).  The only metal in them (besides the motor of course) are large slabs of lead weights.  The shell and frame are plastic.







It's all lead!   

Yeah I have heard about some of those Tomix models suffering from Zinc rot pest, because they are made in China. I'm a member of many different model train internet forums, probably at least 10 different internet forums. I learned that about the Tomix models from the JNS forum, which specializes in Japanese model trains.

I like your Piko N scale trains, I have one of those diesel locomotives myself, the same as your silver and blue colored diesel. Mine has a white roof and red sides. It's in perfect condition, looks almost brand new. And it runs very nicely. And is very heavy with those lead weights inside.

[dem34]

Yeah never really got the hype with it. Its not like our little N scale trains are particularly loud in regards to track noise when run at a reasonable speed.

Tried it on my second layout and kept having ballast crack and fragment with it.

[wm3798]

@dem34 shares my thoughts about foam roadbed.  Most of us use a white glue mixture and it just doesn't bond with the foam, plus the material itself can be compressed with a little pressure, so going over your track with a bright boy cleaner can cause the ballast to crack and come loose from the foam.  Cork is more stable, and porous, so everything bonds and stays bonded.

I found the old Trix turnouts to be a cute conversation piece, but terrible mechanically and electrically.  A Peco short turnout is nearly identical geometrically, and a much better performer.  It will be well worth the investment.

Here's my original track with the old Trix and AHM short turnouts.


And the same location with Peco shorties. 




Apart from the nostalgia of the giant control coffin, the appearance and track geometry are the same, but the performance is a million times better.
My giant Caboose Industries ground throw has its own nostalgic flair, so there's that!

Lee

[Howard1975]

I have decided to stay with cork roadbed, for the reasons above. It's more stable and able to handle white glue and ballast, better then foam.

Looking at my Atlas and Cassido turnouts, I believe they are all salvageable and usable. My Cassido turnouts look exactly the same as my Atlas turnouts (produced in Italy). It's the exact same molding for the ties, switch machine, throw bar, etc.  Maybe they were built in the same factory, I don't know. Nine of my Cassido turnouts (out of twelve) are in good condition, and able to be used as is. About half of my Atlas turnouts (out of ten) are in good condition, and able to be used as is. The rest of the Atlas and Cassido turnouts will need a little work, to get working. A few of the turnouts have a couple broken spikes on the ties, where the rail joiners connect (next to the point rails), making the stock rails slightly lose on that part of the turnout. All of the ties are still present, just have a couple broken spikes. That is not a problem, I can solder in a couple PCB (printed circuit board) ties as needed. Or perhaps glue the rails in place, on the plastic ties. But I think soldering in one or two PCB ties, will be stronger. And yes i know, I will need to cut a gap, on the copper part, to electrically isolate both rails from each other.

And a few turnouts have broken or missing switch machines, which is not a problem, because I can use Caboose Industries ground throws instead, on those particular turnouts.

Overall I should be able to salvage and use, all of the Atlas and Cassido turnouts, which total 22 in number. And my 6 Peco turnouts are fine, which is nice. My Peco turnouts are virtually identical to the standard Atlas turnouts in size. The standard Atlas code 80 N scale turnouts have a 19 inch radius curve and is 5 inches long, while Peco code 80 medium turnouts have a 18 inch radius curve, and is 4.87 inches long. It's virtually identical in size.

I'm not going to use any of my Minitrix turnouts, I will be selling them. If I want something very small, I would get the Peco short turnout. Those Peco short Setrack turnouts, happen to have a 9 inch radius curve, and a length of 87mm (approximately 3.425 inches).

I'm still deciding on what kind of track plan I want. I have been looking at many layouts online, including here at this website, Facebook groups, YouTube videos, and various websites that have track plans. I also have quite a few track planning books, at my disposal. I'm not sure if I want a layout with one loop, or two loops. Or maybe instead, a point to point switching layout. Or combine a switching layout, with a couple of loops for running trains around. Still considering my options.

I know it can become an expensive hobby very quickly, but I'm trying to keep on a budget. Trying to reduce the amount of things I need to purchase, to a minimum. I already have two good power packs, both are MRC Tech 2 power packs. Now I own about 10 working locomotives (and two more which need some work). Now I have around 75 to 80 pieces of rolling stock. I already have enough track (and a couple of bridges) to make a layout, on my 30 inch by 72 inch folding table. I still need to purchase buildings, people, vehicles for my roads, and a few more trees. And I need to purchase the 2 inch think pink or blue foam for the scenery on the layout, and cork roadbed.

 

[Doug G.]

Casadio actually made the early Atlas switches from 1967 - about 1972 or so. Also the specialty track items like terminal track, rerailers, the three-way switches, and double slip switches. The regular straight and curved track was made here in the states.

Doug

[GGNInNScale]

Peteski- the computer geek thing is alive!  When I was at Bell Labs, I worked some with Kernigan, Ritchie and Condon.  Dang those guys are/were smart...  So, I now have 10 Arduinos (Megas and UNOs), and supporting computers helping on the layout... 

[peteski]

Peteski- the computer geek thing is alive!  When I was at Bell Labs, I worked some with Kernigan, Ritchie and Condon.  Dang those guys are/were smart...

Yes, here were some very smart people involved in the early computer field. And the ever-accelerating advance of the computer technology is also mind boggling.

So, I now have 10 Arduinos (Megas and UNOs), and supporting computers helping on the layout... 

. . . until they crash!
Just kidding! 

[Howard1975]

Casadio actually made the early Atlas switches from 1967 - about 1972 or so. Also the specialty track items like terminal track, rerailers, the three-way switches, and double slip switches. The regular straight and curved track was made here in the states.

Doug

Thank you for the information, that certainly explains it. I was wondering why my Cassido and many of my Atlas turnouts looked exactly the same. It's because Cassido made those particular turnouts for Atlas.

About half of my N scale Atlas turnouts were made in Italy (made by Cassido), while the other half of my N scale Atlas turnouts were made in Austria.

Howard

[GGNInNScale]

So far, the Arduinos have been very reliable.  The only one that acts up is my traffic controller UNO.  It seems to get a brain-fa** after a few hundreds of cycles.  So, I added a reset button on the control panel.  A quick tap when it freaks-out, and back to normal.   

[Doug G.]

RoCo made all the Atlas Austrian switches all through the seventies, eighties, until Atlas sourced them here in the States and from China.

During the RoCo era, Atlas alternated between having very similar switches from Austria and here in the States. There were several versions. See this site:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140729180528/www.ebay.com/gds/Ten-Styles-of-Atlas-N-Scale-Switches-Turnouts-Detail-/10000000175276916/g.html

Doug

[Howard1975]

RoCo made all the Atlas Austrian switches all through the seventies, eighties, until Atlas sourced them here in the States and from China.

During the RoCo era, Atlas alternated between having very similar switches from Austria and here in the States. There were several versions. See this site:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140729180528/www.ebay.com/gds/Ten-Styles-of-Atlas-N-Scale-Switches-Turnouts-Detail-/10000000175276916/g.html

Doug

Thank you Doug for the information, I appreciate it.

According to that information, all of my Atlas turnouts (made in Austria) are the types 2 and 3, the oldest of the Austrian types. It appears that all of all of my Cassido and Atlas turnouts are quite old. Which is fine, because I'm interested in building a layout for vintage N scale trains.

Howard

[Doug G.]

The numbers 2 and 3 Atlas switches, with the two-piece switch motors, are probably my favorite ones. After correcting the too wide gauge at the points, they are very quiet and reliable and trains pass through quietly and smoothly.

Doug