Questions for Those Using Iowa Scaled Engineering's "Run-N-Smooth"

[tehachapifan]

Purchased a half dozen of these a while back but am yet to install any (or any other type of power keeper, for that matter). Particularly interested in hearing from those who've used these with Zimo and ESU sound and non-sound decoders.

With ESU decoders, do these play well with the LokProgrammer and, if not, what have you done to make it so you can easily disconnect and then reconnect?

With both Zimo and ESU decoders, will these play nicely on a layout's programming track with reading or programming CV's and/or do the play nicely with programming on the main (I use an MRC Prodigy Express system)?

Thanks!

[kiwi_bnsf]

I'm using these ISE Power Keepers in all my ESU Loksound V5 installs, and they make a big difference to reliability.

I can also confirm that there are no issues loading sound files or firmware from a Lokprogrammer with the ISE PowerKeeper attached.

The only word of caution that I would share is please don't expect an ISE PowerKeeper to cure a loco that has pickup problems. You still need to ensure that all pickups are functioning, and that the loco runs well before installing the keep alive. They only deal to very brief dropouts — 940 microFarads pales into insignificance when compared to HO keep alives like the TCS KA-1 that has a capacitance of 36,000 microFarads @15V. The ISE doesn't even provide a second of power with ESU V5, but nonetheless it does make a big difference in reliability.

Last weekend I switched a big yard (think ladders with more than a dozen Atlas #7 turnouts) with two N Scale Kato SD40-2s equipped with ISE Power Keepers, and I experienced zero sound dropouts or stalls. Without the ISE PowerKeepers, I'd get a stall or sound dropout every couple of minutes in normal operations.

Hope that this helps!

[tehachapifan]

Thanks, Tim! That is good news!

The point about pickup issues is a good one. I am really finicky about keeping loco pickup systems and track clean and, up to this point, I have been able to go without any type of keep alive device in a rather large fleet of (mostly-sound) locos.

The locos that these a slated to go first in have no flywheels (kitbashed N scale switchers) and Zimo MX621 (non-sound) decoders, which have no capacitance whatsoever. So, even the slightest dirty spot causes a complete loss of power. These switchers are built on the early Con-Cor/Kato drives which are from before axle cup pickup strips and truck pickup strips became the norm. I have modified the pickup system to be more robust and is pretty good now. The power keepers should help even more.

[kiwi_bnsf]

That all sounds ideal in terms of further improving things.

I've just ordered five units of the TCS KA-N1 which has a smaller footprint than the ISE keep alive…

https://www.tcsdcc.com/product-page/ka-n1

I'll be sure to post how that goes as well.

[Jim Starbuck]

I don’t have any experience with Zimo decoders or NCE systems as I use ESU on Digitrax. Using high quality decoders such as Zimo on your NCE system will undoubtedly play well with the ISE powerkeepers though.
The Lokprogrammer sees through the powerkeeper which is great because there’s no need to disconnect anything in order to program or make any programming adjustments like we did using bare capacitors.
I talked to the ISE guys at the RPM meet in St Louis and they are quick to point out not to refer to the Run-N-Smooth as a keep alive. With the value of capacitance it has it does exactly what the name implies. They have been a game changer for my switchers and critter builds.
@tehachapifan, I know your excellent work and you’ve been diligent with solid pickup design in your switchers. I think RnS will bring your builds to the next level as well.
As an aside, the new KA-N1 keep alive from TCS allows programming while it’s connected as well.
I’ve used the ISE RnS on Loksound V5 Micros, Nanos and I’ve got an Atlas Legacy in the works which I am expecting to work just fine.
I’ve also used the RnS on ESU non sound decoders. Specifically the LokPilot v5 Micro DCC. They play very well with the RnS but connecting the ground wire is a challenge on the smaller Lokpilot. It has a solder pad smaller than a pin head to connect to whereas the LokSounds have a nice big GND solder pad on the adapter board.
I’ve since come up with a technique to help the fragile solder joint on the Lokpilot Micro that works though.
I’m looking forward to you assessment of the Run-N-Smooth.

Jim

[peteski]

I talked to the ISE guys at the RPM meet in St Louis and they are quick to point out not to refer to the Run-N-Smooth as a keep alive. With the value of capacitance it has it does exactly what the name implies. They have been a game changer for my switchers and critter builds.

I'm glad that they are against calling their device a Keep-alive.   That is  one of my gripes too: modelers just add few caps and say that they added a keep-alive.  I wish we had a better terminology for the added capacitance circuits, depending on the capacitance (and the length of time they can keep the model running when pickup is interrupted.

As I see it, there should be 2 classes of the circuit.  I was thinking of calling one "keep-alive" and the other "stay-alive" but both of those names sort of imply that both have capacitance enough for a longer duration running.

I would think that one class of the circuit would be to keep the model powered for less than 0.5 second, and the other for more than 0.5 second.  Of course the duration of running depends on the load on the decoder, so it is nos a clear-cut definition.

Maybe use the capacitance to differentiate between the 2 classes.  Maybe anything less than 4,700 µF would be for <0.5sec, and anything larger for >0.5sec.

For example the "real" Keep-alives have very large capacitors.  The small ESU Power Pack has a 1,000,000µF (1F) capacitor, and the TCS KA-1 has 5,000,000µF (5F) of total capacitance.

[tehachapifan]

Thanks, Jim!

Regarding soldering these to the Zimo board, that's been the biggest hold up. The decoders are still in their shrink wrap and are nicely tucked away in the locos and I basically need to (almost?) completely remove them and breach the wrapping to get to the extremely tiny solder pads. I'm also not positive that my current (big and clunky) soldering iron will be up to the delicate task. It also appears that the Run-N-Smooth board will just barely fit in the fuel tank and will touch be touching on all 4 sides plus the top and bottom. It's basically an exact fit with zero room to spare but I think it will work.

[peteski]

You know with all the decoder and precision lighting installs in N scale, it might be wise to finally splurge on a good quality (temperature controller, and small tip capable) soldering iron.  It makes a world of difference when working with thin wire and minuscule soldering pads. I'm speaking from experience here.

[tehachapifan]

You know with all the decoder and precision lighting installs in N scale, it might be wise to finally splurge on a good quality(temperature controller and small tip capable) soldering iron.  It makes a world of difference when working with thin wire and minuscule soldering pads

Yes, I need to loosen the wallet and get a better setup for sure. That said, I've been able to do some surprisingly precise soldering with my current clunker.

[peteski]

Yes, I need to loosen the wallet and get a better setup for sure. That said, I've been able to do some surprisingly precise soldering with my current clunker.

I understand Russ, but it should not be a challenge about how much precision work can be done with a low-end iron.  This should be about really enjoying the hobby using tools which make things easy.  Plus, one cannot ever have too many tools.    At least that is how I approach my hobbies.

[dem34]

I'm glad that they are against calling their device a Keep-alive.   That is  one of my gripes too: modelers just add few caps and say that they added a keep-alive.  I wish we had a better terminology for the added capacitance circuits, depending on the capacitance (and the length of time they can keep the model running when pickup is interrupted.

As I see it, there should be 2 classes of the circuit.  I was thinking of calling one "keep-alive" and the other "stay-alive" but both of those names sort of imply that both have capacitance enough for a longer duration running.

I would think that one class of the circuit would be to keep the model powered for less than 0.5 second, and the other for more than 0.5 second.  Of course the duration of running depends on the load on the decoder, so it is nos a clear-cut definition.

Maybe use the capacitance to differentiate between the 2 classes.  Maybe anything less than 4,700 µF would be for <0.5sec, and anything larger for >0.5sec.

For example the "real" Keep-alives have very large capacitors.  The small ESU Power Pack has a 1,000,000µF (1F) capacitor, and the TCS KA-1 has 5,000,000µF (5F) of total capacitance.

My brain likes keeping high capacity, take it off and watch it run for 5 seconds as keep alives. Maybe call the class these guys fall into as a Smoother, or an E-Fly (Electric/Electronic Flywheel). Since thats essentially the role these are filling.

[tehachapifan]

Ok, I got the first Run-N-Smooth installed and initial impressions are very positive! Fuel tank took some work than I expected to get the board to fit, but it wasn't too bad. I have four more of these switchers to do eventually. Hopefully they will go a little faster now that I know what I'm doing.

[Jim Starbuck]

Ok, I got the first Run-N-Smooth installed and initial impressions are very positive! Fuel tank took some work than I expected to get the board to fit, but it wasn't too bad. I have four more of these switchers to do eventually. Hopefully they will go a little faster now that I know what I'm doing.

That’s awesome Russ!

[tehachapifan]

Yes, quite pleased! It does appear, however, that I cannot read the decoder on the programming track with my MRC system. At least not consistently. Haven't tried programming CV's on either the programming track or on the main yet.

[peteski]

Yes, quite pleased! It does appear, however, that I cannot read the decoder on the programming track with my MRC system. At least not consistently. Haven't tried programming CV's on either the programming track or on the main yet.

When using the service mode (programming track), the track is normally under power. That charges the Run-N-Smooth capacitors.  When the command station sends a programming packet, the loco acknowledges it by placing a brief load on the programmign track (acknowledgment). Usually by turning the motor on (the largest load on the loco) for a brief period.    That brief additional current draw on the programming track is sensed by the command station, informing it that the packet was received.  But if there is enough energy stored on the decoder (in that large capacitor), then the capacitor will supplu the current to the motor, with no or very little current drawn from the programming track.  So the command station will not see the acknowledgment current pulse, and error out.  If the capacitor is just  barely enough to supply the current to the motor, sometimes enough current will be drawn from the track for the command station to recognize the acknowledgement.

When using LokProgrammer, the CVs (and loading sound files) do not utilize standard DCC packets. It uses another (much faster) way of communicating with the decoder through the track, so the motor doesn't have to "twitch" to respond to programming packets.  The extra capacitance in the Run-N-Smooth does not affect that method of communication.