Atlas C55 #7 switches

[Sumner]

True, but you should be able untwisted fairly easily. Try grabbing it at the ends with pliers and twist in the opposite direction of the original twist.  I haven't actually tried that on thin strips, but when I cut larger PC board pieces and they get curved, I can easily straighten the curvature just using my fingers.

Yep that is pretty much what I do ....

I have a really cheap shear that works fine for me ...

I try and keep in mind that all real ties aren't exactly the same in the real world.  Easier to except a few not-so-perfect ties.

Lots more detail on making your own and what works for me and only takes minutes to make enough ties for a turnout ( I make them in batches though )....

http://1fatgmc.com/RailRoad/Trackwork/page-4.html

Sumner

[Maletrain]

I have never (yet) tried cutting 1/32" thick PCB, so I am wondering how an old paper cutter would work for that.  Anybody tried it?

[Sumner]

I have one somewhere I think but the hand tin (Aviation) snips are easy and accurate to use (did you checkout the video above?).  A N Scale tie is very narrow and I'd think trying to shear them with the paper cutter might be difficult and might also ruin it for paper possibly.  If you go down that road please report back,

Sumner

[mike_lawyer]

Couple of observations after completing my first Fast Tracks #7 turnout over the weekend:

1.  There is not a whole lot of room on the jig for soldering the frog points together.  The HO versions of the jigs have much more room for this.  The frog helper tool would be helpful here.
2.  An NMRA gauge is an absolute must!  I had to re-solder the guardrails, as they did not provide enough clearance.
3.  Not included in the standard tool pack are the files used to file down points and "meld" them into the stock rails.  That is a very important part of making the turnout work smoothly.  I ordered them last night, and they should be very useful as I build more.
4.  There is definitely a learning curve to building these.  My first turnout is hardly a work of art, and I might save it for some branch line.
5.  In terms of time efficiency, I can see where it would be more efficient to build a bunch of guardrails and frogs at one time, then save them for each build.

[jdcolombo]

The Point Form tool provides a way not only to file the frog point but also to file the switch points flat so that they "meld" into the stock rail.  And the Stock Aid tool gives an easy way to file the "notch" in the stock rail base for the switch points to seamlessly fit "into" the stock rail.  I find both tools indispensable - more so, actually, than the jig itself.  the jig is certainly nice, and a big help when learning the basic techniques, but after doing about a half-dozen turnouts using the jig, I switched to paper templates and 3-point gauges (plus the NMRA gauge).  I actually find it easier to keep everything in gauge, including the guard rails, this way than using the jig.  But the Point Form and Stock Aid tools are an essential part of doing this for me.

My technique for using the paper template is pretty simple.  I print a template, then put a strip (or two) of thin Scotch double-sided tape (not the foam stuff, the thin tape they call "photo mounting" tape, in the yellow and black dispenser) on the template.  Then I put the PC ties down on the double sided tape, which holds them in place for the rail soldering.  When I have the skeleton done, I lift it off the tape, fill in with wood ties on the tape, cut the wood ties to proper length using a chisel blade in a hobby knife, rough-up the back of the rails of the skeleton a bit with some 100-grit sandpaper, then put a dab of thick CA cement on the ends of each tie where the rails cross on the template.  Then pop the skeleton on top of the wood ties, press down and let everything dry for 15 seconds, and . . . done.  When I'm doing a batch of several turnouts (a "batch" might be six turnouts over 2-3 days), I do a bunch of each turnout piece at a time (e.g., a bunch of frog points, a bunch of guard rails, a bunch of switch points, a bunch of stock rails), and put the parts in their own pile on the bench.  Then I start the assembly/soldering process.  This seems most efficient to me, and once I get going, I can do the assembly in about 45 minutes (not including the time I spent making the piles of parts). 

John C.

[mike_lawyer]

The Point Form tool provides a way not only to file the frog point but also to file the switch points flat so that they "meld" into the stock rail.  And the Stock Aid tool gives an easy way to file the "notch" in the stock rail base for the switch points to seamlessly fit "into" the stock rail.  I find both tools indispensable - more so, actually, than the jig itself.  the jig is certainly nice, and a big help when learning the basic techniques, but after doing about a half-dozen turnouts using the jig, I switched to paper templates and 3-point gauges (plus the NMRA gauge).  I actually find it easier to keep everything in gauge, including the guard rails, this way than using the jig.  But the Point Form and Stock Aid tools are an essential part of doing this for me.

My technique for using the paper template is pretty simple.  I print a template, then put a strip (or two) of thin Scotch double-sided tape (not the foam stuff, the thin tape they call "photo mounting" tape, in the yellow and black dispenser) on the template.  Then I put the PC ties down on the double sided tape, which holds them in place for the rail soldering.  When I have the skeleton done, I lift it off the tape, fill in with wood ties on the tape, cut the wood ties to proper length using a chisel blade in a hobby knife, rough-up the back of the rails of the skeleton a bit with some 100-grit sandpaper, then put a dab of thick CA cement on the ends of each tie where the rails cross on the template.  Then pop the skeleton on top of the wood ties, press down and let everything dry for 15 seconds, and . . . done.  When I'm doing a batch of several turnouts (a "batch" might be six turnouts over 2-3 days), I do a bunch of each turnout piece at a time (e.g., a bunch of frog points, a bunch of guard rails, a bunch of switch points, a bunch of stock rails), and put the parts in their own pile on the bench.  Then I start the assembly/soldering process.  This seems most efficient to me, and once I get going, I can do the assembly in about 45 minutes (not including the time I spent making the piles of parts). 

John C.

John -

Thanks for the input, I agree the Frog and Point Forming tool is indispensable, and the stock aid tool is great.  On the stock aid tool, I seem to end up with a little bit of the base of the rail still present.  Not sure if I am not filing it correctly, or if that is just the nature of things.  I guess I can always go back and file a little more of it down if necessary.

With regard to melding the switch points to the stock rail, I ordered the files from Fast Tracks to make that easier.  I find that it takes a bit of "fine tuning" through sanding to get the switch points nice and smooth with the stock rail.

Mike

[djconway]

I'm about a week behind you Mike, my Fast Tracks package arrived Friday. 
So far the hardest part has been keeping the file flat on the filing jigs.
Switch building skills from 44 years ago are coming back, now about my eye sight..

[peteski]

Switch building skills from 44 years ago are coming back, now about my eye sight..

In the last 10 years or so I got very, very intimate with my Optivisor (with the #7 lens plate).

[Bill H]

With regard to melding the switch points to the stock rail, I ordered the files from Fast Tracks to make that easier.  I find that it takes a bit of "fine tuning" through sanding to get the switch points nice and smooth with the stock rail.
Mike

Mike;
I have done perhaps a 100+ turnouts in the past few years either with the FT jigs or a few oddballs with FT paper templates, and did an awful lot of filing. FT's files are good quality, but be aware that files wear out, and a good file card to periodically clean the file will help a lot. Last, if you are going to do a ton of turnouts, a belt / disk sander like sold on Micro-Mark will cut literally hours from your filing tasks and have endless uses in the hobby.

Either way, I left N Scale for a while after endless frustration with factory turnouts, but hand laying the turnouts either with jigs or paper templates re-invigorated my hobby interests. I would never consider going back again.

After you have done a few, perhaps consider them proof of concept samples, it becomes easy, and when you put them on your layout and watch your train just glide thru without a hitch, you are going to be seriously smiling.

Kind regards,
Bill

[Sumner]

.... rough-up the back of the rails of the skeleton a bit with some 100-grit sandpaper, then put a dab of thick CA cement on the ends of each tie where the rails cross on the template.....John C.

Thanks, I'm going to try that vs. the Pliobond I've been using.  It works but I find it somewhat messy and a little inconsistent in the results and at times have to redo a tie that is not glued on one end or the other.

I'm pretty much doing the same as you on the other steps and they work well,

Sumner

[jdcolombo]

I've found that the key to getting ANY adhesive to stick to the rails is to "rough up" the surface beforehand.  Just enough to get the shine off and provide a bit of "tooth" for the adhesive to stick to.  I started using CA instead of Pliobond because I found it less messy, and it's very easy for me to run down to Walmart and get a bottle of thick CA when I start to run low.  Pliobond has to be mail ordered.  And since the CA seems to work just as well (or better), I've gone to using it exclusively.

John C.

[mike_lawyer]

A couple of issues I have found with the Fast Track builds- first, I find that the width of an N scale tie is not quite wide enough to prevent wheels from occasionally "picking" the point.  Anyone have a good width size shim recommendation to use when soldering the points?

The second issue I have is some difficulty getting the points lined up so they are nice and tight when the throwbar is thrown.  Filing helps, but I may just need more practice when forming the curved section of wing rail.  Any tips on getting that right?

[mmagliaro]

As for the files, is it really a "special" file to shape the points and frog rails?  I just used a flat "hardware store" file.  I mean, it's a nice USA made flat file, but nothing special.  And yes, I dressed up the tips with swipes on sandpaper to make their final, smooth shape and fit.

On the width of a tie not really being wide enough to prevent point picking... YES.  I thought that too.  I think what I did was just hunt through styrene scraps for something about 25% thicker than a tie.

[robert3985]

A couple of issues I have found with the Fast Track builds- first, I find that the width of an N scale tie is not quite wide enough to prevent wheels from occasionally "picking" the point.  Anyone have a good width size shim recommendation to use when soldering the points?

The second issue I have is some difficulty getting the points lined up so they are nice and tight when the throwbar is thrown.  Filing helps, but I may just need more practice when forming the curved section of wing rail.  Any tips on getting that right?

This will be a rather long-winded explanation since I need to go over some basics to establish conversational continuity.

Both the blessing and curse of making your own turnouts is that if built to strict NMRA recommendations, meaning the clearance tabs on the NMRA Standards Gage go through the guardrail gaps, the frog gaps, and the point rail toe gaps, check gauge gaps "tightly"...meaning the tabs are always touching both rails bordering any gap.  You will probably find that some of your engines and cars need to have their gauge checked and corrected...or they may pick points, jump over your frog etc.

RTR commercial turnouts generally aren't built to "tight" NMRA standards to compensate for out-of-gauge equipment, giving up smoothness and reliability in that decision.

If BOTH what runs on your handlaid turnouts, and all your turnout clearances are correctly gauged, clearanced, and your closure rail toes fit snugly against their adjacent stock rails (and are properly pointed)...then your rolling stock and engines will run through your handlaid turnouts smooth as silk...much smoother and more reliably than ANY commercially made turnout.

If only certain cars or engines are picking points or jumping over your frog, then it's the individual cars' and engines' problems...wheelset gauge being the problem.

I am assuming what you call a "wing rail" is the same rail that when N-scale turnouts are built the Fast Tracks way, form the wing rails at the frog, the closure rails, and the point rails...when in the majority of prototype turnouts, these are three separate parts.

The rails attached to the switch's throwbar are called "point rails" and vary in length as the turnout becomes a larger number. 

The portion of the point rails that bear against the adjacent stock rails are called "point rail toes", and the portion of the point rails that are hinged (on the opposite end of the point rail) are called "point rail heels".

Getting the point rail toes to properly mate up smoothly with the adjacent stock rails is critical for a proper, well-functioning turnout...the main problem being the wheels on rolling stock "picking the points"...which is usually caused by either the flanges not being properly (exactly) gauged, or the point rail toe gaps not being wide enough to clear a properly gauged wheelset.

However, if the point rail toes are not tapered to a sharp enough point, or if they don't fit snugly against the adjacent stock rail when closed....this can also result in "picking".

I don't build my turnouts using all of Fast Tracks recommendations, nor do I use any jigs or fixtures...just my flush cutters, my files, my Dremel with a sanding disk, and my bench grinder...with an NMRA Standards Gage, and at least two three-point metal track gauges in the proper rail size and scale...using paper templates.

I am assuming that when you refer to the thickness of an N-scale PCB tie not being "enough"...you're using it to gauge the gap between the point rail toes and the adjacent stock rails, rather than using an NMRA Standards Gage to do that.

I recommend using the NMRA Standards Gage to check ALL clearances.

If you have got the gap at the point rail toes correct, and you're still experiencing "picking the points" see which side the offending car is picking....either the closed side or the open side.  If it's picking the open side, it's likely the offending car isn't gauged exactly.  If it's picking the closed point rail side, then perhaps you haven't got a sharp enough point, or a smooth enough point, both of which you can fix by de-soldering and re-filing.

Once again, if all of your clearances and gaps are correct according to your NMRA Standards Gage, then the problem is with the offending car/engine...wheelset gauge being the culprit.

If your point rail toes are wobbly, here's the solution.  (A) Make dead certain that ALL of your PCB tie corners are smooth and totally free of any attached copper shards or burrs.  Before soldering any rail to PCB ties, hit all the corners on the ties upon which the point rails slide with a fine, flat file to make sure the rails slide from side to side totally freely.  You can tell if there are any copper burrs on your ties' edges by feeling them with a finger or thumb.  File away ANY sharpness from all the ties corners...as well as your throwbar's corners too. (B) Just as you've de-burred your PCB ties, do the same with any corners you've filed away on both your point rails and the adjacent stock rails.  NO BURRS anywhere...use the feeling with a finger method for finding them...do not trust your eyes (an old machinist's trick). (C) Make sure that you remove what you need to remove from both point rails and adjacent rails by filing at a 90deg angle to the rail foot.  You need both the sides of the rail head and the rail foot of both filed point rails and adjacent stock rails to mate up evenly...no gaps at either top or bottom. (D) Before you solder your throw bar to the bottom of your point rail toes, make certain that the toes are resting fully on both headblock ties with the throwbar between the headblock ties.  Ideally, the toes of your point rails should end at the edge of the first headblock tie.  Err on the side of maybe ending them a little further, but not shorter.

What this does is make a strong three-point mechanical sliding clamp with the bottoms of both point rails sliding on the tops of the headblock ties, and the top of the PCB throwbar sliding on the bottom (foot) of the two adjacent stock rails between the two headblock ties.  Now you see the necessity of making sure there aren't any burrs on either the ties or the rails.

When soldering both stock rails and the point rails just aft of the point rail toes to the PCB throwbar, it is ESSENTIAL that you don't get any solder...even a little filet of it...at the base of either rail where they meet.  An easy way to ensure that no solder is going to stick to the tops of the ties where stock rails and point rails meet, is to coat the tops of the PCB ties where you don't want any solder to go with the graphite from a plain old sharp #2 pencil...making sure to not make any marks where you WANT solder to stick.  When soldering your point rails to the throwbar, coat the throwbar with pencil lead precisely where you don't want solder to go, and also on the top of the throwbar where it rubs against the stock rails' undersides.  This makes sure no solder goes there, and is also a good lubricant, making the sliding of the throwbar noticeably easier than without it.

One other technique I use on some of my "high speed" turnouts at the entrance to my mainline UP Center Sidings is to "joggle" the adjacent stock to accept the point rail toe of the diverging point rail.  It's easier to illustrate than to explain, so here's a photo of one of my "joggled" stock rails where the diverging point rail toes mate up to it...

Photo (1) - Joggled Stock Rail on my Code 55 #9 turnout leading to my UP Center Siding at Emory, OPEN:


Photo (2) - Joggled Stock Rail on my Code 55 #9 turnout leading to my UP Center Siding at Emory, CLOSED:


"Joggling" is a prototype practice and was used on the UP mainline I'm modeling on some of the center sidings I took photos of back in the 1980's. It was commonly used by other railroads too.

Here's a diagram of prototype "joggling"...

Photo (3) - Prototype Joggling Diagram:


I used my flat-nose pliers to joggle my two turnouts after everything was soldered up.  I'm using silver bearing solder (96/4 Tin/Silver) which is 6 times stronger than normal electrical solder, so I can't say if my technique for joggling will work with weaker solder.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[Sumner]

Thanks Bob, lots of good info there.



Could you explain a little more about the two throwbars and the small attachments that are between the throwbar and rail.  Thanks,

Sumner