Unions allege Norfolk Southern job cuts saddled engineers with other duties

[Philip H]

https://www.freightwaves.com/news/unions-allege-norfolk-southern-job-cuts-saddle

"The lawsuits, filed Thursday, contend that NS (NYSE: NSC) has been forcing engineers represented by BLET to work in conductor assignments. BLET says NS is unfairly taking advantage of a clause in the 2015 collective bargaining agreement related to workforce scheduling, according to a court filing.

Conductors and brakemen are represented by SMART-TD.

In announcing the lawsuits, SMART-TD and BLET said NS has been “willfully” depleting its workforce and using locomotive engineers to fill the responsibilities left open by departing conductors and brakemen."

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Good. Go get em!

About time there's some financial pushback to the madness.

[C855B]

Somebody has to hold NS accountable for the sh*t they’re pulling at all levels. We’re now dealing with 10-12,000 ft manifest trains here at eight grade crossings with a 10 mph curve in the middle. It wasn't this way a year ago, before they combined several smaller trains. This nonsense has crossed the line from inconvenient to dangerous, in a number of respects.

[Hawghead]

Last trip I was called off the pool to dog catch a train that was tied down at Dodson and bring it into Portland before deadheading to Hinkle.  The train had three crossings blocked for twelve hours before we got there.

Scott

[Missaberoad]

So I don't completely understand exactly what is going on. Maybe Scott or someone could shed some light on a few questions?

The way it works for us is we have a weekly "crew change" where manpower and pool levels are set based on avaliable miles.

For example say the engineers pool is set at 10 guys, but there is 15 qualified engineers then 5 engineers would work as conductors this week.

Next week If the pool is reduced to 9 then one engineer would be set back and work as a conductor.

Now a set up engineer cannot be called as a conductor, but a engine qualified conductor can be called as an engineer to fill vacancies thruout the week.

Is NS calling engineers to fill unexpected conductor vacancies? They tried that here years ago but the union was able to successfully fight it.
Who sets the pool numbers?
Up here is is the union that sets them based of potential miles to be made.
Is there a mechanism to reduce engineers if there is an excess of crews? Or once you are set up is that it?

Also an unrelated question but still on the subject of work rules. I was listening to an American engineer speak on YouTube and he was talking about working off his rest and implied that the only rest you get is the 10 hours mandy at home. Is this true?
We can book upto 24 hours after each trip, and have the option of staying at the bottom of the pool until our rest is up. We also get 48 hours off after different milage thresholds... ...and we are fighting for more time off yet. 

[pedro]

So I don't completely understand exactly what is going on. Maybe Scott or someone could shed some light on a few questions?

The way it works for us is we have a weekly "crew change" where manpower and pool levels are set based on avaliable miles.

For example say the engineers pool is set at 10 guys, but there is 15 qualified engineers then 5 engineers would work as conductors this week.

Next week If the pool is reduced to 9 then one engineer would be set back and work as a conductor.

Now a set up engineer cannot be called as a conductor, but a engine qualified conductor can be called as an engineer to fill vacancies thruout the week.

Is NS calling engineers to fill unexpected conductor vacancies? They tried that here years ago but the union was able to successfully fight it.
Who sets the pool numbers?
Up here is is the union that sets them based of potential miles to be made.
Is there a mechanism to reduce engineers if there is an excess of crews? Or once you are set up is that it?

Also an unrelated question but still on the subject of work rules. I was listening to an American engineer speak on YouTube and he was talking about working off his rest and implied that the only rest you get is the 10 hours mandy at home. Is this true?
We can book upto 24 hours after each trip, and have the option of staying at the bottom of the pool until our rest is up. We also get 48 hours off after different milage thresholds... ...and we are fighting for more time off yet. 

Your cost of living must be very low! I couldn't afford that much time off...

These work rules are going to vary by railroad and even location based on local agreements. For example, the BNSF is still really several different entities as far as the unions are concerned. There is former Santa Fe, former Q, former northern lines....all under different agreements. Even among each former line, agreements can vary by terminal.  Our pool numbers are also set weekly every Monday by the unions, but retroactively based on miles run the previous week. The company can also override the union based on perceived needs. The company alone sets the extra board numbers.

As far as rest cycles, this also varies by location. Some pools have the ability to book rest, others do not; other locations have programmed rest cycles. The pool I'm in, the only options are to take 14 hours off, or 24 after my 4th or 5th consecutive start, and only at the home terminal. This is to avoid falling under the provisions of the federal RSIA law, which dictates I HAVE to take 48 hours off after the 6th start. If you leave town on your sixth start and come home on a 7th, you will get 36 hours off. Any 24+ hours off period, or a straight deadhead, resets your start count. Any time worked over 12 hours including van transport is added to your mandatory 10 hours undisturbed rest minute-by-minute.


The workforce is forever divided about whether we're getting too much time off, or not enough. Some people would work every single day if they were allowed to; some would work once a month. 24-30 hours off at home between trips feels about right to me, but I have a 300 mile district. It's not uncommon for me to get out "on my rest" at the home terminal, either. I don't necessarily like that, but you can really rack up the miles doing it. If I'm not feeling it, I can just lay off and go to the bottom of the board when I mark back up.

There is absolutely no provision or precedent on BNSF for an engineer taking a call to work as a conductor. There would have to be some penalty claim agreed to for that to ever happen. The opposite does happen occasionally, with a set-back engineer currently working as a conductor taking a call to step up as an engineer for the day. Because it is considered a "promotion," there is no penalty.

[Missaberoad]

Your cost of living must be very low! I couldn't afford that much time off...

Our pay is pretty good, and you can always book less rest... 

These work rules are going to vary by railroad and even location based on local agreements. For example, the BNSF is still really several different entities as far as the unions are concerned. There is former Santa Fe, former Q, former northern lines....all under different agreements. Even among each former line, agreements can vary by terminal.  Our pool numbers are also set weekly every Monday by the unions, but retroactively based on miles run the previous week. The company can also override the union based on perceived needs. The company alone sets the extra board numbers.

That sounds pretty similar to how it works for us, the company will set the total manpower, but the union has final say on pool numbers.

As far as rest cycles, this also varies by location. Some pools have the ability to book rest, others do not; other locations have programmed rest cycles. The pool I'm in, the only options are to take 14 hours off, or 24 after my 4th or 5th consecutive start, and only at the home terminal. This is to avoid falling under the provisions of the federal RSIA law, which dictates I HAVE to take 48 hours off after the 6th start. If you leave town on your sixth start and come home on a 7th, you will get 36 hours off. Any 24+ hours off period, or a straight deadhead, resets your start count. Any time worked over 12 hours including van transport is added to your mandatory 10 hours undisturbed rest minute-by-minute.

This is definitely a spot where we differ considerably. Like I said we can book up to 24 hours after each trip and 48 hours after certain monthly milage thresholds (1075, 2150, and 3225 miles) we also are booked off after making 3800 chargable miles in a month.
Our mandatory time off is based on hours worked not trips. Any time we work over 10 hours is 8 hours rest at home 6 hours away mandy. Wealth have a maximum of 18 hours worked in a 24 hour period. (12 hours maximum per trip with the option of being off duty in 10 hours if we choose) We can also work upto 64 hours without having 24 hours rest.

Deadheads also count towards our clock, and working over 12 is basically unheard of (except emergencies, or work trains)

The workforce is forever divided about whether we're getting too much time off, or not enough. Some people would work every single day if they were allowed to; some would work once a month. 24-30 hours off at home between trips feels about right to me, but I have a 300 mile district. It's not uncommon for me to get out "on my rest" at the home terminal, either. I don't necessarily like that, but you can really rack up the miles doing it. If I'm not feeling it, I can just lay off and go to the bottom of the board when I mark back up.

Same with us some guys will double out at home, others try to never work. I'm somewhere in the middle, 30 hours off between trips is pretty good. Mind you the paychecks are nice when we are turning quick.

There is absolutely no provision or precedent on BNSF for an engineer taking a call to work as a conductor. There would have to be some penalty claim agreed to for that to ever happen. The opposite does happen occasionally, with a set-back engineer currently working as a conductor taking a call to step up as an engineer for the day. Because it is considered a "promotion," there is no penalty.

Thats exactly how it works for us. We also have a provision where the conductor can't make less then his turn did if he is held off to work as an engineer. So for example if you are held off to work a 100 mile switcher and your turn goes on a trip and makes 400+ miles you can claim the difference.


Thanks for the insight, its really interesting how different things are based on companies and even terminals.

[CBQ Fan]

So if one is asked to perform another role other than their primary role are they paid at a lessor rate?  I would assume these hours worked would reduce their available hours for the preferred role??

[pedro]

So if one is asked to perform another role other than their primary role are they paid at a lessor rate?  I would assume these hours worked would reduce their available hours for the preferred role??

Correct. You’d be paid at the greater rate. For instance: I am dual freight/passenger qualified. My current regular assignment is in a freight pool. Once in awhile, I am called with an offer for extra work on a local passenger assignment. Since the pool trip pays more, I am “made whole” for my missed trip. That is, I’m paid for the round trip I would have made if I hadn’t taken the passenger assignment.

[Hawghead]

   The U.P. here in the Northwest works similar to what has already been mentioned.  Engineers numbers on the pools are set by the union but it is based on mileage and is calculated every week.  The company sets the number of engineers on the extra board and as you would guess, they keep it cut to the bone to avoid having to pay anyone guarantee.  The thing to keep in mind is that when a qualified engineer does not have the seniority to hold anywhere as an engineer he is "cut back" and works on one of the conductor boards.  When engineers are added to the various boards they come from the engineer qualified conductor ranks.  As a result, as is currently the case, even if additional engineers are needed there isn't always enough conductors to be able to "afford" to mark some of them up.  The upshot being that if there is going to be a shortage, it's going to be in engineers not conductors. 

   As far as the article goes the company can not call someone that is currently holding as an engineer to work as a conductor.  Now they can call an engineer qualified conductor to work as an engineer but would have to either, mark that person up to the engineers extra board, pay that person one week of engineer guarantee if they didn't mark him up, and pay the senior engineer qualified conductor the difference in wages between what he made and what the conductor that was called to work as the engineer made.  I don't know the particular circumstances of the NS, so I don't know if the are calling engineers to work as conductors or are expecting engineers to perform work that is normally the responsibility of the conductor, such as lining switches etc.

  Agreements vary across railroads, regions and even pools in the same service units.  Something that is often forgotten is that our agreements never end or more simply, our contracts never expire.  Once an agreement is made between the union and the company, that agreement is binding forever.  However, every six years the company or the union call file to "renegotiate" the contract and if both parties agree then contract negotiations can begin.  This is why our contracts contain rules and work conditions that go back decades. 

Pedro,
I'm surprised that your company has a provision for you to layoff to avoid federal rest, I thought that was forbidden by the FRA.

Scott

[pedro]

Pedro,
I'm surprised that your company has a provision for you to layoff to avoid federal rest, I thought that was forbidden by the FRA.

Scott

It’s called “smart rest” and if you select it, you are kept on the board, but not called for 24 hours. You maintain your position on the board, to the point of possibly being first out when your 24 hours is up. If we’re really turning fast, you’ll often get run around (without penalty) while waiting. The same thing happens to us while on RSIA-mandated rest… you stay in position on the board and sit first out until your rest is up.

What’s IS illegal, is crew management watching start counts and deadheading crews on their 5th start to reset their start count. Let’s just say that conference calls have been overheard that would suggest this is sometimes done intentionally.